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Full Version: Has anyone recently received a Nip in Osbaldeston. Lancs?
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sarahg1969
I haven't, however, I drove through there today. I believe the main road is Longsight Road.

The road was an NSL, and then I saw 40 terminal signs. There were no repeaters, but then I noticed, on approach to the speed camera (Gatso) that there was a camera sign on the right with a "30" rondel on it. I was surprised - I was sure the previous sign said 40. However, on exiting the village, and seeing the NSL signs again, I turned and looked, and saw that the other side of the signs said 30. However, I was CERTAIN that I'd seen 40 signs.

Coming back later in the day, I took a look. I was right!

At one end, there are 40 signs and then a camera sign with a 30 rondel on it. In the other direction, there are 30 signs.

The signs have obviously been changed since Street View photos were taken, they both show 40, and there's no camera sign.

In this case, what's the position for anyone being flashed by the speed camera?

The Rookie
Well the first thing is to check the TRO, also to check streetlighting status and how far it is from the 40 signs to the Camera, if its a restricted road (and it sounds likely it is) then 'abuse of process' or 'special reasons' may be more appropriate than an NG plea.

Simon
helpneeded
I've recently received a NIP for that camera. Offence around 22 Nov 37 in 30. Annoying thing is that all the signage for that area (including red patch on roand at either end with 40 roundel) was changed some months ago but the limit stayed at 40. I noticed this because it was a change to the norm. I travel the road regulalry (every few weeks) and notice when things change. Subsequent to the signage change, the limit was reduced to 30 - so only numbers on the signs changed. Having driven past the camera again, I notice that there was a new sign (after the camera) informing motorists that the speed limit had changed. Surely, this must be abuse - if the intention is to get motorists to comply, the correct place to tell them that limits have changed would be at either end and not just after the speed camera. As you'll realise, I'm not happy and I'm considering challenging the NIP. Anyone able to give any advice, do I have a case??
peterguk
QUOTE (helpneeded @ Thu, 9 Dec 2010 - 23:04) *
if the intention is to get motorists to comply, the correct place to tell them that limits have changed would be at either end


QUOTE (helpneeded @ Thu, 9 Dec 2010 - 23:04) *
the limit was reduced to 30 - so only numbers on the signs changed.


Just to clarify - the large terminal signs have been changed or not?
helpneeded
Peter. Yes, I'm sorry, I'm not making myself clear. A few months back, all the signs were renewed and markings put on roads with 40 being the unchanged limit - point is that it was significant changes to signage that you noticed. Only recently was the speed limit changed from 40 to 30 with signs at either end showing the new limit. No real changes to signage apart from numbers changing (recognise this sounds a bit dim as the numbers are the important bit). One sign added telling you that speed limits had changed, but that was in the middle of the zone after you had passed the speed camera.
I also understand from a garage owner near the stretch that there have been countles people questioning him over the changes and he confirms that at one point the speed limits were different depending on your direction.
ianfin
Hi I recenltyrecieved a NIP from this camera. I got flashed while travelling through on 20/11 at about 00.30 and couldnt believe it when i saw the fash, I wrnt back a few days later to check the signs because i was sure it was a 40mph limit and saw 3 cars flashed while i was turning round in the church yard! has anybody challenged a NIP fro tis camera?
Ian
sarahg1969
I haven't been past since 10 October, but I can confirm that the terminal signs in the direction Clitheroe on that date said 40 (with a camera sign and a "30" a little further on), and in the other direction they said 30. Unfortunately, I can't say if and when they were changed.

Is there anything in the local press, I wonder?
Birtrum
My wife and five friends have all been caught by this camera. I have written a letter to the lancashire evening telegraph about it and apparently it was published in Saturdays paper, as I believe this is theft by Lancashire police. There is a warning sign that the speed limit has changed placed after the Gatso and not before, which is dispicable. I'm hoping they will publish imy letter online so our views can be aired in public. I suggest everyone bombards Nigel Evans the Ribble valley MP about this issue at the two email addresses below:
ribblevalley@tory.org
evansn@parliament.uk

Write to the evening telegraph too http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/ as no one deserves a ticket from this. If road safety was an issue, they would have provided warning signs to slow traffic down

My wife and five friends have all been caught by this camera. I have written a letter to the lancashire evening telegraph about it and apparently it was published in Saturdays paper, as I believe this is theft by Lancashire police. There is a warning sign that the speed limit has changed placed after the Gatso and not before, which is dispicable. I'm hoping they will publish imy letter online so our views can be aired in public. I suggest everyone bombards Nigel Evans the Ribble valley MP about this issue at the two email addresses below:
ribblevalley@tory.org
evansn@parliament.uk

Write to the evening telegraph too http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/ as no one deserves a ticket from this. If road safety was an issue, they would have provided warning signs to slow traffic down
blocco
Did you think to include anything in your letter about the way in which the speed limit has been signed that is before the camera for it is that which you should be taking note of not additional information on posters after you have chosen to ignore the speed limit signs?
clarkesgas
I have just received my letter today, they say it is a reminder, but never got the "first one" I was flashed a month ago
by the "safety" camera around 12 a.m. doing 37 in what I thought was a 40 zone, sorry but i was concentrating on
the road, the change of speed limit signage just isn't good enough.
If they really wanted me to slow down, they could have put one of those smiley face cameras there, they are impossible to miss, or even tell you the speed on the back of the camera. or would that be far too helpfull?
jack964
biggrin.gif Hi I am new to this site after seeing the letter in the Lancs Telegraph. I have unfortunately been snapped 3 times on this stretch in November as i had no idea the speed had been reduced. I have took photographs and i sent them with a letter to the Central Ticket Office who stated that the Council is responsible for the signage and they have completed all the signage and that this was done and fully compliant on the 18th of October and that enforcement commenced from the 15th of November. I have emailed the ribble valley MP and am awaiting a reply. I have opted to take my chances at court because I do not believe the signage to be correct. I had no idea it was reduced to 30 mph until i got all 3 NIPs in the post then i went and checked the signage and there was no red markings etc on the road like there is now but there was a national speed limit sign on the side that i have photographed. Is anyone else challenging their tickets?
Birtrum
If you can write your comments on the website below it should help with our case. They are making thousands from this camera and it is totally wrong

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/comme...ere_inadequate/
jack964
I have put a comment on the lancashire evening telegraph lets hope we can get somewhere huh.gif It sounds like alot of people have been caught out by the same issue.
Birtrum
I spoke with a Martin Nugent at Lancashire county council today and he claims that the correct signs were in place as of the 15th of November 2010, which would say that any tickets before this date would be illegal. He claims that all signs are in accordance with :The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 so I took a look at this document and found this:

Speed limit information sign
62. A new temporary sign, diagram 7032, has been included in Schedule 12, to inform
drivers of a newly imposed 30mph speed limit. This is intended for, and limited by
direction 37(2) to, use where a 30mph speed limit has been extended to a stretch of
road on which there was previously a higher speed limit as well as a system of
carriageway lighting. It must be located at, or as near as practicable to, the point from
which the terminal sign indicating the previous higher limit has been removed. Again
there is no provision for this sign to display a speed limit other than 30mph, because of
the direction 11 requirement for regular speed limit repeater signs if the speed limit is
different. Signs to diagram 7032 must be removed after 6 months.

When I drove through the zone in early January, the only sign I saw was leaving the zone, hence it does not comply with the near as practicable point in the above. On Friday this week they errected one of these signs at the start of the zone to cover their backsides.

I spoke with a Martin Nugent at Lancashire county council today and he claims that the correct signs were in place as of the 15th of November 2010, which would say that any tickets before this date would be illegal. He claims that all signs are in accordance with :The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 so I took a look at this document and found this:

Speed limit information sign
62. A new temporary sign, diagram 7032, has been included in Schedule 12, to inform
drivers of a newly imposed 30mph speed limit. This is intended for, and limited by
direction 37(2) to, use where a 30mph speed limit has been extended to a stretch of
road on which there was previously a higher speed limit as well as a system of
carriageway lighting. It must be located at, or as near as practicable to, the point from
which the terminal sign indicating the previous higher limit has been removed. Again
there is no provision for this sign to display a speed limit other than 30mph, because of
the direction 11 requirement for regular speed limit repeater signs if the speed limit is
different. Signs to diagram 7032 must be removed after 6 months.

When I drove through the zone in early January, the only sign I saw was leaving the zone, hence it does not comply with the near as practicable point in the above. On Friday this week they errected one of these signs at the start of the zone to cover their backsides.
The Rookie
Why not ask Mr Nugent about the sign erected in jan then?

Simon
Birtrum1
Mr Nugent will not admit to when the new speed signs were erected and will only quote that they were compliant as of the 15th on November 2010 which is bullshit. He will probably be busy changing the installation dates on his records so he can cover Lancashire County Council's backside for the cock-up they have made. If anyone has any photos of the start of the zone, which clearly shows that there was no warning sign outside the Bay Horse garage, can they publish it on-line. If we win this they will have to pay back all the speeding fines they have issued and if you have been on a speed awareness course, I can't see why you cannot charge them for loss of earning either.
clarkesgas
how are you intending to take the matter further?
clarkesgas
try contacting bbc watchdog, they might be interested
jack964
can we not ask the director of bay horse SAAB dealership when the council put the signs up? I heard he has been clocked on this camera too?. maybe his staff have seen the council backtracking or maybe there is cctv in the area to prove the council are telling lies?
The Rookie
FOI request to the council for ALL the details of sign erections on that road, get them to put it all in writing, then if they lie you can hit them with the Info commisioner as well!

Simon
jack964
biggrin.gif Good idea I have emailed a detailed request to Lancashire County Council about when and where the signs were put in and by who under Freedom of Information
It will be interesting to see what they say. I think the paperwork will say different to when the signs were actually put in place.
Giles008
I was also recently snapped by this camera on 6/12/10 along a stretch of road which I use a couple of days each week for the past 3 years. I was unaware of the change in speed limit until I saw the flash and a nice NIP in the letter box a week later. This is absolutely disgusting! I have reviewed the local rags leading up to the date, but cannot find any notification of this change in speed limit.

As part of being a responsible driver, we all need to pay attention to our surroundings, the road conditions, speed limits etc. We cannot simply rely on our historic experiences or knowledge of the highway. Things change. Nevertheless, this is corrupt and is nothing but a revenue generator. What hope does this country have, when road taxes rise (and yet we have large pot holes), fuel prices rise at an exponential rate (most of which is tax)........and now we are being exploited by the Police.

During the weeks following my photo capture, I noticed that the signs alerting drivers that a new speed limit has been imposed, had been relocated onto ‘other’ lamp-posts. How strange? Obviously someone has decided that the signs in their original location were insufficient or perhaps non-compliant? I have attached a rough sketch (pdf) of what I understand to be the situation with the mysterious moving signs.........Please comment as you see fit.

I would therefore like to raise this question....."If a motorist was captured today on the same camera (with these relocated signs), has he/she had an advantage over the situation when I was captured...........or should I say, was I at a disadvantage"..............Either way, roll out the barrels Mr plod.
helpneeded
Hi Giles - I like your map, however, I think that some of the detail is incorrect. Specifically, the siting of the little red signs (7032) which advise motoriststs that the speed limit has changed. When I was caught by the camera (in Oct), as you drove away from Preston, NW, there was only one of these and it was after the camera. I wrote to the Lancs Safety Partnership asking for the rationale of locating that sign after the camera and not before, - their response was that it was the first location available and was legal. Unfortunately, the response came too late for me to contest my NIP, however, I notice that the sign has now been moved and is now sited before the camera. Leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth, now got three points on my licence, paid money for the priviledge and insurance has increased.

All the best- Help Needed
helpneeded
Sorry Giles, should have made myself a little clearer. I think that prior to Jan, the 7032 signs were both located on one single lampost which was after the camera if travelling away from Preston. In Jan, one of those signs (the one visible if travelling North East) was removed and relocated to another signpost now before the speed camera. In your diagram, you say that there were two pairs of theses signs either side of the camera, I say that there were only ever two signs and in Jan, one was relocated.

Help Needed
ipb1962
I wrote a letter of appeal and got back that standard response in which they state that the signage was correct as of 18th October 2010.

They have offered me the speed awareness course (I get the feeling we have all been offered it !) £69.00 so they still get the revenue and it costs me an additional £9.00 to avoid 3 points.

I am writing to Nigel Evans and I am seriously thinking of taking the court hearing. Anyone know what the worst case scenario is if you fail to have the prosecution overturned?

We need to get as many people together as possible.

Ian.
Birtrum
My wife has opted for the speed awareness course, to avoid the three points but I'm not stopping at this. I have applied for a list of the sign changes, through the freedom of information act and I intend to take LCC and the police to court through the small claims procedure. If everyone is willing to throw a few quid into the pot, we should do it as a joint or class action against them. If we win then everyone who has been caught by this camera could claim back their money and any loss of earning if hey have been on a speed awareness course.

I want the heads of both Traffic services at LCC and the chief of police for motoring to roll through this. I've even considered writing to Top Gear about it for their support.
hardiants
Hi there.
I am yet another victim of this camera, travelling from Preston 05/12 at 41mph.
I couldn,t believe I got flashed, as I have travelled quite regularly along this road.
Clearly I have a dilemma. Accept the £60 fixed pen or go to court and chance a £300 plus, which would be the ultimate kick in the teeth.
has anybody taken it through the court, or are we all afraid of the consequences and begrudgingly pay up.
Any advice would be gratefully accepted, thanks.
jack964
Hi,
I have elected to go to court. I am awaiting a court date but i think they are that busy processing all the tickets that is the reason for the delay. I am not going to court to avoid points or paying etc I am going because I believe that the signage is incorrect and was in November 2010 and is still not correct at this time. I would accept if I had been speeding and the signage was correct but I cannot accept this and I have to try because if we all just accept it then nothing will change sometimes we have to try and fight for what is right. cool.gif
Birtrum
I have taken advise from the Daily Telegraph motoring lawyers and they suggest a Judicial review is needed into the way in which this speed change has been enforced. I have just received a reply from LCC, under the freedom of information act, which although intentionally vague to cover their backsides, makes a few surprising admissions. One is that they say the signage was compliant as of 22nd October 2010, whilst the Police are saying it was on the 18th October. They have also admitted that the sign warning of the new speed limit change was not in the correct position, but they are saying that these are not mandatory. The case still stands that they were not erected in accordance with the regulations and only followed legal guidelines as of the 13,01,2011. Apparently Hertfordshire police made a similar mistake and had to pay back all the fines and pay compensation too. Email me at Birtrum@googlemail.com to help fight this.
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