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justice2010
First of all I would like to say what a fantastic site I have stumbled upon today! I have never before this incident bothered to search the internet for tips on how to make an appeal over a PCN however, on this occasion I felt so robbed that I turned to the internet for some much needed advice and therefore not willing to let this one go...

I was parked on the High street Hornsey in the designated parking bay which had a single yellow line running through it. The attached pictures show the sign that was posted above the bay. I had arrived at the scene at 17.15 and thought Im only going to pick up some laundry from a launderette which was slightly further up the road. Although their was space outside the launderette to park on a single yellow line where I could have kept an eye on it I decided it would be safer to put it in the bay. I came out of the launderette at 18.00 sharp and found my car wasn't there, a lady working in the pub where my car was parked outside told me that it had been towed away and that she even tried to stop them saying they did not wait for the 30mins to lapse before taking my car away (I was completely oblivious to that point at the time). The warden stuck a PCN to my car and a truck was instantly at hand to tow the car away.

There wasn't even a sign to say that this was a tow away zone. The road was fairly quiet and I wasn't obstructing anyone and the car was parked correctly in the bay. I was parked in the bay when I shouldn't have been so I accept the PCN however, I feel the towing of the car was totally unfair especially when their is no sign that says that the area is a tow-away zone.

Please see attached all the documents I have received.

Please note that the vehicle parked in the bay in the picture is not mine. I would appreciate any comments you guys may have to offer. I am a newbie so please do go easy on me in case ive done something wrong. Thank You!











cabbyman
Did you pay to get your car back? Did you get a receipt? Please show.

Fettered TWOC, IMHO.
justice2010
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 21 Sep 2010 - 18:47) *
Did you pay to get your car back? Did you get a receipt? Please show.

Fettered TWOC, IMHO.



Yes I went to the pound straight away to get it back. I paid £200 to get the car back and paid £50 for the PCN the at the pund said I had to pay straight away so I had no choice. 'Fettered TWOC, IMHO.' I have no idea what this means..sorry


cabbyman
There is a course of thought that implies it is unlawful for them to demand payment of the PCN without the chance to appeal it within the time permitted. To the best of our knowledge, this hasn't been put in front of an adjudicator as yet.

If there is any mileage in it, others will be along to clarify the point for you.

Meantime, look up 'fettered TWOC' on the forum; Lots of info on it.
Bogsy
You can use the letter below and just tag any other appeal points on at the end (keep the underlining in).

Dear Sirs

Prior to the removal of my vehicle a CEO served a regulation 9 PCN. Once a regulation 9 PCN is served then the law gives the recipient the statutory right to submit an informal appeal that must be considered and a statutory 28 day period in which to pay the penalty charge should they not want to appeal informally or formally.

When I collected my vehicle, the Council insisted the penalty charge be paid immediately. I do not consider that the regulation 9 penalty charge was “payable” at the time I paid it, since I wanted to informally appeal with the possibility, should my informal appeal fail, of paying it later at the re-offered discounted rate or proceeding to adjudication. Section 101A of the RTRA 1984 requires “any penalty charge payable” to be paid on recovery of a vehicle. If a person has no intention of appealing then a regulation 9 PCN is not immediately “payable” but can be paid at any time no later than 28 days from the date of service. This is a statutory provision. However, where a person does wish to appeal, then a regulation 9 PCN only becomes “payable” by virtue of regulation 4 of “the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007” once all appeal stages have been exhausted and an adjudicator has dismissed the appeal having found as fact that the contravention was “committed”. For clarity, below is what regulation 4 advises;

4. Subject to the provisions of these Regulations a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle where there has been committed in relation to that vehicle—

(a)a parking contravention within paragraph 2 of Schedule 7 to the 2004 Act (contraventions relating to parking places in Greater London);

(b)a parking contravention within paragraph 3 of that Schedule (other parking contraventions in Greater London) in a civil enforcement area in Greater London; or

© a parking contravention within paragraph 4 of that Schedule (parking contraventions outside Greater London) in a civil enforcement area outside Greater London.

One of the "subject provisions" is that a person is given a statutory 28 day period to pay the PCN or otherwise appeal before service of an NtO. The law requires one or the other not both. This principle is commonly emphasised on many council PCN’s that warn the recipient that they must not pay the PCN if they want to challenge it. In other words the PCN is not considered “payable” if you intend to appeal; this is similar to being assumed innocent until proven guilty. Regulation 4 further advises that the penalty charge is "payable......... where there has been committed" a parking contravention. The PCN however only states an allegation of a parking contravention. If a person pays the penalty charge without coercion then this is accepted as admitting that the contravention was "committed" but if a person does not think the allegation is correct then they can appeal until ultimately an adjudicator finds as fact that the contravention was or was not "committed". Therefore I believe the Council acted ultra vires in demanding payment of the regulation 9 PCN immediately on recovery of my vehicle, contrary to what statute provides and contrary to what the PCN advised were my rights.

In addition, I was given no opportunity to submit an informal appeal. Being able to submit an informal appeal following receipt of a regulation 9 PCN is also one of the “subject provisions” and therefore a statutory right. The PCN confirms this right and the Secretary of State’s statutory guidance does under paragraph 83 make it clear that the loss of the right to an informal appeal is only applicable to regulation 10 PCN’s. I was served with a regulation 9 PCN.

83. The vehicle owner may dispute the issuing of a PCN at three stages:
• Owners may make so-called ‘informal challenges’ or ‘informal
representations’ against the PCN before the authority has served an NtO
(this does not apply when the PCN is issued by post as the PCN then acts as the NtO).


Although I was given information on how to appeal this was only in regard to a formal appeal. There was nothing given to me that advised that any right to an informal appeal as advised by the PCN was lost or had been revoked. At the pound, I was given both the PCN and formal appeal documents and these items gave conflicting information as to what my legal rights were. This was and is confusing and prejudicial.

It should also be noted that where a regulation 9 PCN is served then statute provides that any formal appeal against the PCN (not the removal costs) should be in response to receiving a Notice to Owner. The formal appeal document given to me was not a Notice to Owner but simply appeared to be a document served by virtue of regulation 11 of “the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007” informing me that I could make representations against removal (not the PCN). This gave me differing and more restrictive grounds for appeal than a Notice to Owner. Although my vehicle was removed it seems irregular and unjust to give me differing and more restrictive grounds for appeal than any other situation where a regulation 9 PCN is served. I believe such unfair restrictions and limitations to be contrary to the general principles of law.

The Traffic Management Act 2004 and its associated regulations as well as the RTRA 1984 do not stipulate that the statutory rights, provisions and procedures relating to the service of a regulation 9 PCN are revoked and void where that vehicle is later removed by virtue of s.99 RTRA 1984. Therefore I believe the Council has acted ultra vires and is guilty of procedural improprieties.

In addition “The Removal and Disposal of Vehicles Regulations 1986” (S.I. 1986/183) do not prescribe the method of removal used in regard to my vehicle.

With the commencement of the Traffic Management Act 2004 and the introduction of Civil Enforcement Officers, S.I. 1986/183 was amended by “The Removal and Disposal of Vehicles (Amendment)(England) Regulations 2007” (S.I. 2007/3484) to include new regulation 5C.

However, regulation 6 of S.I. 1986/183 has not been amended to take into consideration the newly inserted 5C regulation. As such there is no prescribed method of removal for vehicles that are removed by arrangement of a Civil Enforcement Officer. Without the methods of removal available to Civil Enforcement Officers being prescribed it cannot be certain that the method used was lawful and therefore the Council needs to establish that the method of removal was lawful.

Under the provisions of the Traffic Management Act 2004 I am entitled to a submit an appeal that you have a duty to consider and to which you have a duty, should you reject my appeal, to provide me with clear and full reasons in reply to my points of appeal. This duty is set down in the Secretary of State’s Statutory Guidance and the Traffic Management Act 2004 under section 87 clearly advises that local authorities must have regard to this statutory guidance. Therefore should you fail to reply specifically to each point and substantiate any reason for rejection then I will bring this failure to the attention of the adjudicator.

Yours with love, hugs and kisses.
justice2010
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 21 Sep 2010 - 19:18) *
There is a course of thought that implies it is unlawful for them to demand payment of the PCN without the chance to appeal it within the time permitted. To the best of our knowledge, this hasn't been put in front of an adjudicator as yet.

If there is any mileage in it, others will be along to clarify the point for you.

Meantime, look up 'fettered TWOC' on the forum; Lots of info on it.



Its the £200 for towing the car im more concerned about because that was just ridiculous for them to operate in such a way. They are the bloody criminals here!
justice2010
Wow Bogsy! Cheers mate! I only have a few days until the 28 days appeal representation period comes to an end so I need to move fast! I'm also appealing for them to pay for the damage done to my car because when I started driving it again it didn't feel right so i took it to a garage and found out both front shcok absorbers were damaged along with scratches on the o.s.f bumper and wing. So I have a mechanic report to go along with this appeal too.
cabbyman
QUOTE (justice2010 @ Tue, 21 Sep 2010 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Tue, 21 Sep 2010 - 19:18) *
There is a course of thought that implies it is unlawful for them to demand payment of the PCN without the chance to appeal it within the time permitted. To the best of our knowledge, this hasn't been put in front of an adjudicator as yet.

If there is any mileage in it, others will be along to clarify the point for you.

Meantime, look up 'fettered TWOC' on the forum; Lots of info on it.



Its the £200 for towing the car im more concerned about because that was just ridiculous for them to operate in such a way. They are the bloody criminals here!


You need ALL the valid points you can find. You also need to look things up for yourself so that you grasp an understanding of them. That's why I didn't give you chapter and verse on fettered TWOC.

As Bogsy said 'Add other points to the letter...'

Others will comment upon alleged damage.
Bogsy
QUOTE (justice2010 @ Tue, 21 Sep 2010 - 19:39) *
Wow Bogsy! Cheers mate! I only have a few days until the 28 days appeal representation period comes to an end so I need to move fast! I'm also appealing for them to pay for the damage done to my car because when I started driving it again it didn't feel right so i took it to a garage and found out both front shcok absorbers were damaged along with scratches on the o.s.f bumper and wing. So I have a mechanic report to go along with this appeal too.


Should they reject then the text below will provide the sting in your tail. Include it at the end if you feel it is appropriate.


In the event of this appeal being rejected then I require the council to formally and immediately acknowledge the following request as a request for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000. It is somewhat ironic that to assist my further appeal I have to put the council to an expense that may very well exceed the penalty fees I paid to the council. However this request is necessary to enable a more informed appeal to be submitted by myself at adjudication stage.



1) Please provide all notes and photographs taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer in regard to this Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

2) Please provide a print out of the case summary /log history in regard to this PCN from your PCN processing system.

3) Please provide the full title of the traffic order I am alleged to have contravened in regard to this PCN.

4) Please confirm if the traffic order named above has been amended. If it has, then please confirm on how many occasions and provide the full title of each amending order and the date each one came in to force.

5) Where traffic orders are named in reply to 3 and 4 above, please provide copies of the Notice of Proposal and Notice of Making in each case and confirm in each case where and when these notices were advertised.

6) Please confirm the number of council employees or contracted staff whose duty it is to consider parking appeals.

7) Please confirm the number of staff that have attended accredited training courses on the provisions of the Traffic Management Act 2004 or any other parking related courses.

8) Where courses have been attended then please give the date of attendance and indicate how many staff attended and provide the course title and the full name and address of the training providers.

9) Please confirm whether the council obtain registered keeper details direct from the DVLA or whether the council use a third party to do so. If the council use a third party then please name the third party.

10) If a third party is used then please provide details on how this third party satisfies regulation 27 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002.

justice2010
Yes Ive heard from a friend about trying the tact where you can ask them for information that puts them on the back foot. I should be entitled to this though right? Hats off to Bogsy and pepipoo family if this works
DancingDad
Include a quotation for repair with your appeal and that you will be claiming these costs as they failed to used a prescribed method of removal and as such are fully and totally liable for the damage sustained and any consequential losses arising from their negligence.
For spice you could also add.... That this should be regarded as a notice before action and should they not settle before the end of a period of 14 days begining with the date of service of this notice you may apply to the courts for collection of the debt.

justice2010
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 21 Sep 2010 - 20:46) *
Include a quotation for repair with your appeal and that you will be claiming these costs as they failed to used a prescribed method of removal and as such are fully and totally liable for the damage sustained and any consequential losses arising from their negligence.
For spice you could also add.... That this should be regarded as a notice before action and should they not settle before the end of a period of 14 days begining with the date of service of this notice you may apply to the courts for collection of the debt.


Hi DancingDad yes I think I should do that too. I was asked to make an appeal for the damage done to the vehicle at the pound itself. The guy gave me a form and a pen and we took notes of the damage we could see there and then. Please see attached the response I then heard from them.



JagDriver
There should be photos from the PCN which will either show the prior damage or not (hopefully)
justice2010
Am I right in writing that my car was given the pcn at 17.45 and the car was towed at 17.49 and that they did not wait for the 30mins to lapse before taking my car away?
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