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asherj
Hi,
Im after some advice as I recieved a PCN from one of those mobile smart car cameras a week ago. This wouldnt be so bad but i wasnt parked at the time, I had pulled forward from parking space to perform a u-turn. As I completed the manoevere i did notice the smart car mainly because the driver had a massive grin on his face when he looked at me but i thought nothing of it at the time.

I waited for a moment to perform the turn and it was at this point he must have taken the picture. Your not allowed to turn out of the bottom of Albion Way so anyone that uses the road has to turn left or perform a uturn to save a long drive through the back roads of lewisham high street.

i've attached the pcn, you can clearly see the passenger window is open but it's impossible to tell that there's anyone in the car or that the car was running etc. Im a concerned that the ticket was issued in this way as I cant see how I can defend myself against this particular PCN as im sure the burden of proof is probably on me.

Any help would be appreciated, as I said I hadnt stopped turned off the car or gotten out, so i cant see how you can say I was parked

Asher

PS, the camera car was parked in a disabled space on the opposite side of the road at the time!
clark_kent
Its a cctv PCN so if you didn't park as claimed it will show that on the film, simple defence no contravention occured.
hcandersen
Suggest you require the council to provide you with still photos that in their opinion prove the contravention (as per the PCN). On the face of it the details given so far are insufficient to convey that a contravention has occurred. The PCN accuses the driver of contravening a road traffic order whose effect would have been conveyed through signs at the location, but doesn't give any photos of the sign. Remember, this is a postal PCN and would be sent to the person appearing to be the owner. That person would not necessarily have been the driver and so all necessary info is required to be conveyed in the documentation without the need for any "in situ" knowledge.

On the face of it, the PCN/NTO is deficient and therefore defective which is grounds for appeal under "Alleged contravention did not occur."

Get the photos ASP and post here before sending in your formal reps.

HCA
asherj
Thanks for replying to my post, i've taken some pictures of the paring bay and signs, they arent the greatest as there was no where for me to park in so I took them from the car.

Hope they are useful

Asher
ford poplar
Ideally you need their CCTV footage to show how long you were stationary and whether any exhaust fumes can be seen whilst stationary. I assume you were stopped in an area reserved for bus parking?
asherj
I had stopped for a moment, the only road signs were the ones you saw in the enclosed Jpeg. Im going to write to them and request more pictures/footage, im also going to point out the vague nature of the PCN.

NCP and Lewisham started fleecing drivers last year, it began when they doubled the cost of parking permits out of the blue!

I wont be paying this either way



J_Edgar
The PCN says it is made up of two double sided pages, post the rest of it.
asherj
QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Thu, 30 Sep 2010 - 22:33) *
The PCN says it is made up of two double sided pages, post the rest of it.


The other three pages are the form that allows you to pay, the other two are How to challenge &MAking representations, do you really need to see them?

I've attached the how to challenge section as your advice could be useful/appreciated here guys

Thanks
hcandersen
QUOTE
do you really need to see them?


Yes: life's too short to ask for information we don't need.

You've got until Sunday 10th Oct to submit your representations and you don't have the photos that the council offered to provide FOC to prove its case. In any event, the person considering your reps will not be the CEO who authorised the PCN so another pair of eyes will see what you did if you tell them in your reps which direction to look in.

You weren't waiting, as defined in the relevant Traffic Management Order, you were temporarily stationary while in the process of conducting a traffic manoeuvre. Therefore, the contravention did not occur.

HCA
J_Edgar
The 2nd page you have posted offers the ground for appeal that a CEO was not prevented from serving the original PCN by afixing it to the vehicle or handing it to the owner...

This ground should only appear on a Reg 10 drive-away PCN, but I suggest you use it as they have offered it to you wink.gif

Post the other 2 pages I need to see the grounds listed on the representations form.
asherj
Here you go
DancingDad
You really need to get an appeal in today..by fax as sat and sun are non working days and if council want to be iffy, they could claim late challenge.... on postal legal rules if you post today, 1st class it wont arrive till Tuesday...so get it faxed or take it in by hand and get a receipt... If you fax, keep the fax receipt.
Simple and to point is fine..when they reject we can add and embellish for PATAS.

I would state contravention didn't occur.
You were stopped solely during a legitimate manuever.
Their own video evidence (that they have failed to supply to you) will show that.
Cancel the PCN by return or supply all evidence previously requested so you may prepare your appeal to independant adjudicators.
hcandersen
GET YOUR REPS SUBMITTED!


HCA
Scaramouche
And the next time an expert on this site asks to see the documents, just do it without asking any questions in return, and fast. No apologies for being blunt.
asherj
Ok,
handed my appeal in at the parking shop here in Lewisham, thanks to all those who made pointless comments about the timing, if you had asked I would have said i'm only live around the corner from the buggers!

Anyway, atteched a copy of my brief appeal, the guys in the shopt where kind enough to openly laugh at my letter and condisendingly point out that I was parked in a space designated for buses. I was pleased to see their faces drop when I quickly pointed out that I wasnt parked and was in the car with the engine running. I didnt even mention the U-turn so I'm curious to see what happens.

I'm 99% certain they will reject it anyway as this ruthless Labour borough have really started screwing all of its working constituants of late, the price of everything car & council related has rocketed in the last 12 months, disgusting.

Thanks in advance for pointing out any mistakes errors or things i should have said, very useful at this stage im sure.

Thanks to all those who are constructive and helpful, some of the advice is really good stuff

Asher
J_Edgar
Well seeing as you have such a wonderful attitude towards the people here that provide their help and advice for free, the best of which you seem to have ignored, good luck with your exceptionally poor appeal.
DancingDad
QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Thu, 14 Oct 2010 - 21:47) *
Well seeing as you have such a wonderful attitude towards the people here that provide their help and advice for free, the best of which you seem to have ignored, good luck with your exceptionally poor appeal.


I'm not even too sure that your letter will be construed as an appeal.
It can easily be read as a request for information.
Councils have lost cases before now by issueing a notice of rejection to an info request so clever ones don't.

Personally I'd say it's 50/50 which type of letter is received from council next...NOR or CC

QUOTE
thanks to all those who made pointless comments about the timing.........

My pleasure...the pointless comment I made above will be the last I make as you obviously don't want advise no matter how well meaning

asherj
Just a quick one for you guys,

I recieved a pcn in the post last month from Camden council and apon recieving it wrote my own crude request for more information and cctv footage and was surprised to recieve a letter from Camden rejecting my appeal!

I at no stage state that i would like to appeal and was unable to send back the original PCN or forms as I had misplaced them, so my question is what do I say next?

I've already begun to draft a letter informing them of their mistake/assumption but it occurs to me that perhaps there is a technicality I could use to wriggle out of the whole thing due to their eagerness to collect another £60 and deny me a formal appeal.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Asher
Scaramouche
Post up everything: PCN, and all correspondence, less personal details to see what can be done. Regards, S.
DancingDad
It's a clear procedural Improprietary for a council to issue a document out of time or prescribed order.
They cannot issue a rejection letter with no challenge to consider being sent.
(Which really does cement the oft held view that they don't read em let alone consider them.

But before we go in all guns blazing.... lets see what documents you got. As SCaryMouse says, PCN, Rejection letter and most important, your request. There must be no room for your words to be considered a request.
bama
its a challenge to a PCN not an appeal.
and its reps to an NTO - (for a reg 10 PCN that makes it reps as a reg 10 also serves as the NTO)
You can only appeal an NoR (to adjudication)


seems the council doesn't understand this. smile.gif
asherj
Hi, finally got a reply from lewisham, naturally they reject my appeal, the reason they state is something to do with the pictures being taken by an approved peice of equipment! Th ey dotn provide any footage and have sent pictures of such a poor quality you cant see anything of use. They say my vehicle was stopped for two minute but dont prove or verify this in anyway etc. I've posted the letter

Any advice as always appreciated
Korting
May I suggest you remove the PDF that you posted and post up a new one with ALL your details removed including car reg number in photo's
asherj
QUOTE (Michael 194 @ Sun, 12 Dec 2010 - 20:35) *
May I suggest you remove the PDF that you posted and post up a new one with ALL your details removed including car reg number in photo's

Thanks
DancingDad
Upon reviewing the thread now it's been merged, post #17 seems of merit.
Please regard post #20 as a freeby
Neil B
Asher. Start again. NOT in a new thread, but this one.

These are good people.

From what I have seen of the rejection letter I believe you have a good case.

BUT

Earlier images removed?

Latest image too small then too big if magnified - sort it!

Reference to Camden???

--

Members will expect pics of the location as well please.
asherj
Hi,
sorry but I ran out of space for the attachements. I know the image is poor but believe me when I say that it is no worse than the copy they sent me. The original was only a little bit better, if you want i'll post a higher resolution copy on here for a bit tonight but you wont be able to make out any detail at all as the images are that bad.

The poor quality pictures are a deliberate ploy by NCP Lewisham as they are a highly comtemptuous bunch who are more than happy to taunt you to your face and dare you to appeal, all this in the parking shop itself!
bama
put images on tinypic as per the FAQ
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...ticle&id=16
Neil B
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 13 Dec 2010 - 11:42) *


Ditto.

It isn't the quality it is the sizing (as I said) and file type (gif?????).

Tinypic will auto size (so don't go messing trying to help) and use jpeg file pls.
-
asherj
Ok
here's the image again in a link, please let me know if there are any problems. As i said the quality of the images in the letter is so poor you cant really make anything out.








asherj
This Is a reply to post 20 by dancing dad, documents for your perusal...

I was naughty with this and simply tried to stall for time as the tickets have been coming thick and fast recently, not sure what to do with the response as they have assumed I was appealing...






TallBloke
These images need to be scrubbed of anything that can ID you.
Neil B
You really need two separate threads now.

On the Soton Row. See other similar cases on this site - use search. Signage has been discussed in the past i think. Also, contravention only if u-turn is a single sweeping manouvre AIUI.
------------

On Lewisham.

Why only £60 outstanding??

I think that rejection helps you. Less than 2 mins stopped bears out your original story/claim of preparing for turn. If vid shows you did then u-turn, after waiting for safe room to do so, then you were never 'parked' surely?
I would further argue that to contravene the restrictions of a goods vehicle only bay - in real terms you would actually have to use that bay to either park or load.
asherj
I dont know why the lewisham parking fine says that there's £60 outstanding.

I'm tempted to just pay up on Camden, i've been working my ass off the last few months now the chance is here and really dont need this stuff on my mind, I barely have the mental strength to open my post on my best days recently, I find it all very stressful...

Ohh and it was originally two threads, admin combined them!

Thanks again
asherj
Just to let you all know i had my hearing with the parking adjudicator (RE Lewsham) and won! It seems the council had made up its own bus parking space as the adjudicator was unable to find the box type in his official list. It seems they took a Taxi rank parking space design and then painted the word bus on it which is not permissable as a valid space without speacial dispensation form the department of transport!

What an amazing relief, thanks for all your help guys...

Asher
Glacier2
Well done.
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