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fabster
Hi all, I am new to the forum so bear with me if I've not provided all information in order for the best advice possible from you experts for my appeal.

On Sunday, I foolishly parked in the same way a Waltham Forest Community minibus had parked - ie. on a single yellow line, with 'one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway'.

I'm attaching several photos to show how I had parked (I'm the Clubman), and directly behind me, how the Council's own minibus had parked.
I did what it had done, yet strangely only I got a ticket (!?)
I even looked to see but the minibus did not have a blue badge, as I thought perhaps that would have exempted it from contravening 622.

I'm also attaching a conflicting contravention sign off Hoe Street which is the source of my confusion.
It is a stone's throw from Blackhorse Lane which is where I got my PCN last Sunday. It clearly says 'no kerb parking' on it with the red line across it, below with applicable times, excluding Sunday. Hence why I was led to believe it is now ok to park on a kerb on a Sunday. I should point out also that in Walthamstow, increasingly, many of our residential streets in the borough have become kerb parking to assist flow of traffic, with marked bays admittedly. I think unconsciously, I had come to see it as ok to do so on a Sunday, particularly since the Council's own minibus was doing it!

Reading the forum about Waltham Forest and other towing nightmares, I think I got lucky that I wasn't towed... perhaps because it was a Sunday and they were too busy in church tongue.gif

Seriously though, I am rather miffed that the Council's own minibus behind me was also contravening Code 622, but it did not get a ticket.
The silly thing is I could have parked on the drive, but I did not want to obstruct the entrance of the building.

Perhaps I don't have a case and should just pay up the higher level £60/120 PCN?

Or do I challenge on the following points:

a) How misleading & inconsistent the kerb parking sign is near my home (which then led me to misunderstand kerb parking restrictions) Because of this sign off Hoe Street, it led me to believe I could park on kerb unless otherwise stated, particularly since the Council's own bus was doing it!

b) How I got a ticket, yet the Council's own Community bus did not...?
Whilst I realise two wrongs don't make a right, I genuinely thought it was ok to park on the kerb this way on a Sunday, otherwise I would have parked on the drive.

c) There is also the small matter that I've been suffering from a slipped disc and cannot walk far as a result of it. This is why I parked in front of the building to pop into the studios for between 7-10 minutes to say hi to someone. I have had a recent operation and can prove that I've been getting hospital treatment for the pain. Could I use that as part of my appeal, or am I clutching at straws?

Any advice would be appreciated, thank you.

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dave-o
There is a slim chance that if you are close to those areas that are marked for pavement parking (i know the area) and there is confusion caused by the sign, then you may have a point on that.

What number of what road are you outside? I'll take a look on my way home.

b) irrelevant
c) in which case you should have parked on the yellow line, not the pavement. There is no reason your condition would have neccesitated that.
hcandersen
I can't find the mandatory element of "Time at which the alleged contravention occurred" on the PCN. Have I missed it?

In pure terms, dave_o must be correct regarding (b), however, in the context of (a) I think it is relevant as it helped to inform your understanding at the time in question. It also means that you can introduce this information within a rational argument (not one that runs "I did because you did") and you can then see what the council does with it.

You never know, a "compelling reason" for cancelling your PCN could be to avoid potential embarrassment at adjudication.

HCA
fabster
Thanks for prompt response.

The confusing sign-post is off Hoe street, two streets from Ye Olde Rose & Crown, on the left of Hatherley Road as you turn into it from Hoe St. There may well be others like it, I wouldnt know though.

Just spotted the time bit is 16.58 - 16.59.... I couldn't have been more than 5 mins thinking about it now...

Someone at work suggested that I should ask to see proof that the Council's own community bus got a PCN too... should I request that in the appeal?

Cheers for your help

*Edit - just realise what you mean by your question - I was parked outside the Blackhorse Lane studios, number 114, just next to the petrol station.
fabster
The rules for kerb parking have really got me confused now. I realised this morning on my way to work over in Wanstead, which is over the other side of Walthamstow's Epping Forest, cars parking along the kerb all the way along New Wanstead, Hermon Hill up to Chigwell Road. All of the cars lined along these roads have parked with 2 wheels on the kerb (in some cases all 4). Yet not one PCN on any windscreens. This is an everyday occurrence I might add. Often I do the same when I cannot find spaces nearer the hospital where I work.

Wanstead is approximately less than 10 mins away from where I got ticketed for doing the same thing on Blackhorse Lane last Sunday. How does it work that by default kerb parking is not allowed in one place, yet is in another. It seems rather arbitary to have this default inconsistency. How are drivers meant to understand which is the 'default' rule in one area which contravenes code 622, yet on a different street in the next borough, the same contravention does not exist? Unlike yellow boxes, single, double yellow lines, these traffic regulations are universal from borough to borough, kerb parking seems to differ from one borough to another.

Wanstead is the same as Waltham Forest - both are designated as 'Outer London boroughs'. Please can anyone clarify where I might stand on this point since both areas are classed as Greater London, yet kerb parking by default is allowed in the former, but not in the latter borough, which is minutes away?

I'm not talking about the signs indicating one way or another, I'm focusing on the 'default' non-signposted parking rules that differ between neighbouring boroughs.
dave-o
QUOTE (fabster @ Tue, 7 Sep 2010 - 17:23) *
Someone at work suggested that I should ask to see proof that the Council's own community bus got a PCN too... should I request that in the appeal?


No, that's a red herring.


QUOTE (fabster @ Tue, 7 Sep 2010 - 17:23) *
The confusing sign-post is off Hoe street, two streets from Ye Olde Rose & Crown, on the left of Hatherley Road as you turn into it from Hoe St.

*Edit - just realise what you mean by your question - I was parked outside the Blackhorse Lane studios, number 114, just next to the petrol station.


OK you've got me confused now. How can a signpost near the junction of Hoe st and Hatherley road cause confusion on Blackhorse Lane near the garage? They are not even close to each other (i know both locations).
Perhaps i am misunderstanding you, but it seems very tenuous.



And in response to your last post, pavement parking is a contravention throughout London.
fabster
Sorry maybe I didnt explain myself clearly Dave-o. I'll try again...

I park occasionally off Hoe St on Hatherley road and often see that confusing sign which says 'no kerb parking' between these hours (excl Sunday).

I have then taken to misunderstand that unless I see a sign specifically saying 'no kerb parking' (like the one on Hatherley Rd), then by default, it isn't a contravention unless otherwise sign-posted that it is. Hence why I parked on Blackhorse Lane on the kerb as there were no signs that said 'no kerb parking'.

Before you say it is a blanket ban across London for kerb parking - Would you say Wanstead is classed as London?

Because the other place I often park is in Wanstead. (which is classed as Outer London like Walthamstow is)
There, the roads of New Wanstead, Hermon Hill up to Chigwell Road have cars parked on the kerb all the time and every day. And they never get ticketed.
It would seem by default kerb parking there is allowed.

As opposed to 10 minutes across the forest and kerb parking by default becomes a contravention.

So my point is this:

How is it that in one borough the 'default' contravention differs from another borough (as in the case of Waltham Forest & Wanstead).
Or indeed from another street in the same borough (as in the case of Heatherley Rd and Blackhorse Lane).

This inconsistency in approach to signage is why I have gotten caught out.
I'm trying to work out whether this would stand up in appeal?

Any help appreciated, thanks
dave-o
I don't know whether Wanstead is London. Does its council call itself London Borough of Wanstead? However, i don't see how this is relevant to a ticket served in LBWF. If you mean "i live outside London - how was i to know?" then you are just meant to know. It is in the Highway code, apparently. And no I was not aware of this either until i got a CCTV ticket for pavement parking. Luckily they messed up the NTO though. That was what got me to 1-0 in the scoreline in my sig


The reason those signs are on Hatherley is because near the Hoe Street end, there are bays which allow pavement parking, and signs that show this. The "no pavement parking" signs are to denote the end of this allowance.

I can't see any useful link between these signs and parking on the pavement on BHL.

I'd say look at other angles, but with pavement parking there are precious few angles (such as signage, bay markings, TROs etc.).
fabster
Yes, Wanstead is in the 'London Borough of Redbridge' which forms part of Outer London, therefore the blanket angle isn't quite accurate.

My point of confusion has been because I am allowed to park on kerb where I work in Wanstead, but the same kerb parking is an un-signposted contravention where I live in Walthamstow.
Both are London Boroughs minutes apart, yet have different 'unwritten' rules.

What a great little earner for LBWF... or is that a missed opportunity for LB of Redbridge?

I still fail to see how as drivers we are meant to know the different un-signposted rules when they are different from borough to borough (both within Outer London) huh.gif
dave-o
Basically, it's best to assume that if you are within the M25 you don't park on pavements.
fabster
Haha I like the appropriate use of the word 'assume'!
dave-o
I wish i had more hope to offer. Perhaps someone else will chime in.
strollingplayer
The minibus probably falls under some exemption which declares the council to be an emergency service.
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