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rover_mad
I am asking for information following a friends experience. Seriously, it is not me who has been done ...
He was driving home last weekend from Scotland in his estate car (MOTed, insured, taxed), and was stopped by a traffic car in Glasgow, whereupon he learnt from the 2 nice BIB that his number plates were not legal. He was told that having the red dragon Welsh flag logo and "Wales" indentifier was the problem. All else with the plates (spacing, font etc) was OK, as was everything else with the car OK. He was told that the offence of "not legal plates" carried a £60 non-endorsable penalty, and a ticket was issued and given to him. Gob-smacked, he accepted this and drove home (to Wales, no less). Since which he has this weekend sent a (non-guaranteed) cheque to the payment office, and told me about these events.
Some facts: he tells me he had the plates made up recently (as he has a personal number, and has put it recently on this car), by a reputable factors who attach the "not for road use" disclaimer to their receipts; the red dragon logo and the identifier fit within the usual 50mm allotted space and don't encroach onto the boarder of the VRM space; he was told at the time of the stop that "the police in Scotland are cracking down on this type of offence". It is this latter "statement" that is worrying me, as I think this should be brought to the attention of many potentially innocent motorists.
After doing some digging, including using this very helpful Pepipoo service (noting such recent posts as Stewart-83 seeking help in similar areas of concern), I have unearthed the relevant legislation (many have quoted this already in these pages) and also information from the British Numberplate Manufacturers Association which backs up the legislation, both appearing to support the Scottish BIB in essence. BUT, and here's the rub, following a link from the BNMA website to the DVLA FAQ, I am directed to the following direct.gov page:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Perso...lates/DG_181503
which states near the bottom of the page, under "National flags and identifiers" that you positively CAN display these symbols on your number plates. This information is obviously correct as it freely available for anyone to view, is supported by our current legislation makers and keepers (ie our government), and carries todays date.
So who is correct? Please help, as I have the Scotland flag and identifier on the plates on my old Maestro, and I wouldn't wish to offend anyone if ever I venture over the border (TIC ;-0 ) And people need to know !!!
ict_guy
The problem is - no company is allowed to make a number plate displaying the relevant Kite mark (bottom right corner of the plate) without either the V5 document or a form from DVLA allowing the plate to be made. Hence the 'not for road use'.

Technically, the police could issue a £60 non-endorsable penalty for the plates not displaying the Kite mark.

Your friend could of course go to court and argue their case. The fine can be anything up to £1000.
redloner
There is no problem having a Welsh flag, together with Cym, or Cymru, provided it meets the size/font/spacing requirements.

ict guy may have hit the nail on the head.

As this appears to be a show-plate, a missing maker's ID, postcode and kitemark may be the problem, rather than the Welsh flag.
MartinHP71
QUOTE (rover_mad @ Sun, 29 Aug 2010 - 22:32) *
I have unearthed the relevant legislation (many have quoted this already in these pages) and also information from the British Numberplate Manufacturers Association which backs up the legislation, both appearing to support the Scottish BIB in essence. BUT, and here's the rub, following a link from the BNMA website to the DVLA FAQ, I am directed to the following direct.gov page:
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Perso...lates/DG_181503
which states near the bottom of the page, under "National flags and identifiers" that you positively CAN display these symbols on your number plates. This information is obviously correct as it freely available for anyone to view, is supported by our current legislation makers and keepers (ie our government), and carries todays date.
So who is correct? Please help, as I have the Scotland flag and identifier on the plates on my old Maestro, and I wouldn't wish to offend anyone if ever I venture over the border (TIC ;-0 ) And people need to know !!!


Direct Gov Uk is a website which can be or out of date.
The date on the website is automatically generated so not relevant

It is the LEGISLATION which counts, not some Government organisations interpretation of the rules. Example of this was a document circulated (I believe by the DfT) to all councils showing how PCN's should be. They were wrong as PePiPoo proved via alot of work. So, follow the legislation NOT a website.

redloner
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/81...gulation/4/made

“16.—(1) No material other than a registration mark and material complying with the requirements of any of the relevant standards mentioned in Schedule 2 may be displayed on a registration plate.

(2) Subject to the following paragraphs of this regulation, a registration plate may not be combined with any other plate or a device of any kind.

(3) The letters “GB” may be displayed on a plate or other device in accordance with the Annex to Council Regulation (EC) No. 2411/98 on the recognition in intra-Community traffic of the distinguishing sign of the Member State in which motor vehicles and their trailers are registered(1).

(4) Subject to paragraphs (5) to (8), there may be displayed on a plate or other device an arrangement of letters corresponding with one of the sub-paragraphs of paragraph (9) and an emblem corresponding with one of the sub-paragraphs of paragraph (10).

(5) The arrangement of letters and emblem referred to in paragraph (4)—

(a)must be displayed to the left of the registration plate;

(b)must not encroach into the margin,

and for this purpose the expression “margin” is to have the same meaning as in regulations 14(9) and 14A(2)(f).

(6) The emblem referred to in paragraph (4) must be positioned above the arrangement of letters referred to in that paragraph.

(7) Neither the arrangement of letters referred to in paragraph (4), nor the emblem referred to in that paragraph, must be more than fifty millimetres wide.

(8) Paragraph (4) does not apply—

(a)if the letters “GB” are displayed in accordance with paragraph (3); or

(b)if the relevant vehicle is recorded in the part of the register relating to Northern Ireland.

(9) The arrangements of letters referred to in paragraph (4) are—

(a)“United Kingdom” or “UNITED KINGDOM”;

(b)“UK”;

©“Great Britain” or “GREAT BRITAIN”;

(d)“GB”;

(e)“England” or “ENGLAND”;

(f)“Eng” or “ENG”;

(g)“Scotland” or “SCOTLAND”;

(h)“Sco” or “SCO”;

(i)“Wales” or “WALES”;

(j)“Cymru” or “CYMRU”;

(k)“Cym” or “CYM”.


(10) The emblems referred to in paragraph (4) are—

(a)an image of the Union flag;

(b)an image of the Cross of Saint George, as depicted on the flag of England;

©an image of the Cross of Saint Andrew (the Saltire), as depicted on the flag of Scotland;

(d)an image of the Red Dragon of Wales, as depicted on the flag of Wales.”
rover_mad
QUOTE (redloner @ Sun, 29 Aug 2010 - 23:04) *
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2009/81...gulation/4/made

“16.—(1) No material other than a registration mark and material complying with the requirements of any of the relevant standards mentioned in Schedule 2 may be displayed on a registration plate. ...


From this my friend is therefore innocent? All the other required information regarding the plate manufacturer, kite mark and BS AU145d is displayed and was not apparently deemed unlawful (just checked this with a phone call to him ...) It was the flag and identifier the BIB were interested in. Should he now cancel the cheque and await a court date?
peterguk
If the plate complied with the law, in ALL respects. Challenge it.

If not (which is what you suggest), then how is your mate going to show he had a lawful plate???
redloner
QUOTE
reputable factors who attach the "not for road use" disclaimer to their receipts

This seems a bit puzzling. Is this because they make both legal and show plates and your mate bought a legal plate, or is there some part of the process they do not adhere to, such as identification or entitlement checks?
rover_mad
I don't know. I'll double check all these details with him tomorrow, it's getting a bit late to phone again now. Maybe we can provide some photos as well.
peterguk
Don't forget the maker's postcode at the bottom edge...
andy_foster
He's paid the penalty, so the matter is dead.

Is there any particular reason why he couldn't ask us himself?
southpaw82
Cancelling the cheque is a bad idea. There is no defence to a bounced cheque.
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