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Dhome
Hi

I wish i had found this site a while ago before things get complicated. Now, we have filed an Injunction and a hearing at the local county court set on Thursday, 12th August 2010 to stop the clamping company from scrapping our car and face a massive fee. Here is our story (apologies for the long story :
On the 8th of April, our car was towed and the sign at the car parking basement shows ZCS UK Ltd. My husband didn't find out until the 24th of April because he was oversees for work for two weeks but the the Iceland volcanic incident extended it until the 23th of April. I don't drive and I had no idea. My husband called the ZCS to check if they have our car as it is in a secure car parking after all, spoke with them and was told that our car did not have a car parking permit on display. My husband said it did as he made sure the permit and the steering wheel lock are in place before he left. The clamping company wouldn't budge and so my husband called the police. As usual, police said it's a civil matter and that they cannot get involved but the police adviced him to check the validity of the permit. My husband was too frustrated to speak with them so I called the clamping company myself and asked if we can come and see the car to find out what happened if there was a mistake or if the car has been broken in as we are saying that we have a permit on display but they are claiming that we didn't. The gentleman said, there was no mistake. we don't make mistakes and I argued that mistakes can happen and he said that they have a photograph. I asked then if we could see the copy. I was told that no on both requests because they only provide a POBox and added that it is not their procedure. If we want our car back, we have to pay for it and then we can make the appeal. I said how much do we have to pay then. He said that he'll give me a call on the number I'm calling from first thing thing as the offices are now closed. Monday, 26th April. NO call. I called the following day when I was at home and spoke with a lady, gave her my registration number and was told that there was a note for us that the fee was £850 but if we pay in the next 3 days (Mon,Tues,Wed/28-30April), we get a discounted price of £650. I said okay, I'll speak with my husband and call you back. The next morning, I called back and ready to pay. I spoke with another lady and she said that I have to pay in person and collect the car. Her instruction was for me to take a train to Erith, take a taxi and someone will meet us and the taxi will follow the car. I asked what time are they open until as my husband works until 5:30pm and I don't drive. I was told they are open until 6pm but I checked and Erith is in Kent in the Southeast and there's no way my husband can make it there on time. I asked if we can collect on a weekend but might be able to pick up on Friday afternoon. The lady said that she will check if there will be someone in on Sat. and call me back on the number i was calling from. That afternoon, Debra left a voicemail to say that as it is a bank holiday weekend, they will not be open but we can collect it on Tues. I called back and asked how much are we going to pay now. She said it will be £850 if we pick up on Friday but will be more if we collect on Tues. I said that's not fair. I'm willing to pay now the £650 but £850 is going to be hard. Arguments went in circle that i should have known paying is the same as collecting, was put on hold several time without being asked and in the end i gave up. I spoke with my husband, we decided to get advice from CAB and was advised to write a formal complaint letter and if we don't hear from them in 28 days, we can take them to court. We did just that, sent a letter recorded but no response. However, a week later the company showed as dissolved due to none filing of accounts. We were at a loss and for a long time, we were trying to find out info, SIA, BPA, Ombudsman, Watchdog, Trading Standards, CAB but to no avail. Went to the police for the last time last month and was was informed a company called Local Clamping Services have our car; called them and was told to pay £1300, a few days later £2000 which is half of the actual £4000 fee otherwise it will be scrapped. And now, we went to court and the clamping company have faxed to the court some pictures; apparently to prove that we didn't have a parking permit. We know we did and I'm soo worried as I don't know how things are going to end. Andy advice will be appreciated.

Many thanks for reading.

matt2
Sounds like another shocking example of clamping companies' behaviour.
I am surprised none of the 'wise ones' on here have responded to this one yet so am bumping it just in the hope they have missed it previously.
What I would suggest is uploading any correspondance you have received onto this site. See the 'stickies' section on how to do this.
Good luck.
Dhome
Thanks Matt. Unfortunately, we have NOT received any written correspondence from them prior to the court hearing last 29th July which was adjourned as per their requests. But I can upload the clamping company's sworn statements tonight which was faxed over to the court. Do you think I'd be breaking any confidentiality or data protection of any kind by doing this? I have only 2 days left before the hearing...
bama
what does your lease/deeds say about parking ?

do you have you own allocated parking space ?
do you own or/pay for it ?

have you signed up to this scheme ?

who has the contract with the clampers ?

were you notified of the company change ?

pics of the signs please
Dhome
Thanks Bama, see replies below:

what does your lease/deeds say about parking? The tenancy agreement does not mention anything about parking but have requested confirmation from the management company whom we pay rent to that we are entitled to one parking bay in the building.

do you have you own allocated parking space ? Yes, we allowed one parking bay

do you own or/pay for it ? It is part of our rent

have you signed up to this scheme? No , we are just tenants, paying monthly rent.

who has the contract with the clampers ? The management company for the entire residential building blocks.

were you notified of the company change ? No we weren't. They are claiming that the first company (the one dissolved) was their sub contractor.

pics of the signs please, will post sign tonight.
bama
you are sure it is part of your rent but need to ask the management co ? ? ?

if they are subcontractor then surely the main contractor being non-existent ends the sub contract. you can't sub contract to something that doesn't exist surely. (the eagles may comment on this).
ManxRed
QUOTE (bama @ Mon, 9 Aug 2010 - 15:31) *
if they are subcontractor then surely the main contractor being non-existent ends the sub contract. you can't sub contract to something that doesn't exist surely. (the eagles may comment on this).


The only way around this that I could see would be if all three parties are party to the original agreement, which I doubt is the case here.

There may possibly be an implied assignment if the Management Company have been paying fees directly to the subcontractor, but then we are in messy territory. I would ask for a copy of the agreement with the clampers/towers from the Mgmt Company and see what it says about this third party.
Dhome
Thanks ManxRed
I have tried to upload what looks like the agreement between the management company and the clamping company but because all the docs are copies from the ones faxed over tot he court. most are obscured. It did say though that the company(including associated companies where appropriate, its officers, employees, sub-contractors, franchises and licenses. This gets really confusing... The clamping company is now in possession of our vehicle is claiming that the original clampers (which are now dissolved) were sub contracted by them and another statement saying that the original comapany (now dissolved) is their trading name. OMG, don't know where to start. Have you got an email where i can email the documents to... i don't feel comfortable uploading all the defendants/clampers statements.
Many many thanks

Thanks Bama, We are a hundred percent sure the parking is included in the rent.

Thanks ManxRed
I have tried to upload what looks like the agreement between the management company and the clamping company but because all the docs are copies from the ones faxed over tot he court. most are obscured. It did say though that the company(including associated companies where appropriate, its officers, employees, sub-contractors, franchises and licenses. This gets really confusing... The clamping company is now in possession of our vehicle is claiming that the original clampers (which are now dissolved) were sub contracted by them and another statement saying that the original comapany (now dissolved) is their trading name. OMG, don't know where to start. Have you got an email where i can email the documents to... i don't feel comfortable uploading all the defendants/clampers statements.
Many many thanks

Thanks Bama, We are a hundred percent sure the parking is included in the rent.
bama
interference with goods
and
right to peaceful enjoyment


spring to mind
Dhome
@Bama, but their argument is that we didnt have a car parking permit on display and that they have photos to prove it. :-(. The police said that we are entitled to request for the photos but the clampers say that that photos may only be produced perhaps in the court of law.
bama
permit ?
to park in space you pay for ?
why you need one them ?

search for
"interference with goods"
and search for
"right to peaceful enjoyment"

on here. quite a bit written about it
roythebus
Good luck to the OP, but with the shambles of contractors/sub-contractors etc and dissolved companies, it's a mess.

Having been involved as a main contractor for something a few years ago, my company subbed out a job to someone else. That job didn't go quite to plan, so the client took my company to court. the judge held that it is the responsibility of the main contractor, and we had to refund some of the money for the job.

In my view, in this case, your contract is with the landlord. He then has a contract with a parking company, who then sub-contracts to another company. It sems to be the typical PPC scenario of taking the landlord/landowner AND the parking companies to court. they are jointly and severally liable.
Dhome
@Bama, yes the parking bay is part of the rent so we were issued a car parking permit and it is our responsibility to display this which we have done but they are claiming we haven't and when we asked for a copy of the photos, it was declined and was told it will only be shown perhaps in the court of law. I will read more on intereference...

@Roythebus, thanks for your input. The trouble is we have only filed the injunction against the clamping company to prevent them from scrapping the car and hopefully return of our car. The original property management for the building blocks apparently have sub contracted the management to another company but we were told that they are changing companies because of unresolved problems. Our landlord (whos is based overseas have representative (a real estate management company) as they are based overseas said there's nothing they can do but to try to resolve this directly with the clamping company. As you said, a messy one. Didn't realize it until we are so deep and desperate.
dave-o
In the situation i think i would get a court claim started, against the clampers and the management company.

I would claim for the cost of a replacement car (or your car returned) and the expenses you have incurred while without your car.

You have given them plenty of opportunities to return the car and i don't see that you are left with much choice.

Other opinions welcome!

YOu could begin this process with a NBA to both parties spelling out exactly what amounts you will be claiming and how long they have to comply. This could make the management co pull their finger out!
hcandersen
QUOTE (Dhome @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 11:58) *
@Bama, yes the parking bay is part of the rent so we were issued a car parking permit and it is our responsibility to display this which we have done but they are claiming we haven't and when we asked for a copy of the photos, it was declined and was told it will only be shown perhaps in the court of law. I will read more on intereference...

@Roythebus, thanks for your input. The trouble is we have only filed the injunction against the clamping company to prevent them from scrapping the car and hopefully return of our car. The original property management for the building blocks apparently have sub contracted the management to another company but we were told that they are changing companies because of unresolved problems. Our landlord (whos is based overseas have representative (a real estate management company) as they are based overseas said there's nothing they can do but to try to resolve this directly with the clamping company. As you said, a messy one. Didn't realize it until we are so deep and desperate.


Your dispute is with the landlord, not the clamping company (sometimes one of the principals to a contract might be able to claim that the other party was acting so far outside their explicit or implied contractual or legal authority that the principal could not be held to be liable for their actions - but that does not apply here). Secure the injunction if possible. The alternative is that if the car is damaged then you have a certain civil claim against the landlord who would be required to compensate you for your losses. As your car is valued at less than £5000 (which is the upper limit in the "Small Claims" track of county courts) then your case should be relatively easy to pursue. Just confirm that your lease states that in the case of disputes matters fall to be resolved under English law.

HCA
bama
"we were issued a car parking permit and it is our responsibility to display"


how was this 'responsibility' created/assigned/agreed ?
strollingplayer
It looks like the claim is already started. Did you include the management company? If not, you may have to pay to have them added to the claim (which you should be able to get back at the end). You say you have a hearing on Thursday? Tell us more. I suspect someone will have to look over your particulars of claim. We have a couple of experts, though I won't suggest sending a private message until they've actually been here to accept it, especially since you're on the clock.
Dhome
Thanks HCA. We will try to our best to get the injunction however, with them claiming they have proof that we didnt have a permit on display, might be difficult. I will check the lease and find out.
dave-o
You own/rent the land, so you don't have to have a damn permit! It is only for their convenience!
Dhome
QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 12:24) *
"we were issued a car parking permit and it is our responsibility to display"


how was this 'responsibility' created/assigned/agreed ?

when we viewed the flat, we were told that the flat comes with one parking bay and that we will be given a car parking permit and
when we moved in, a permit was given to us along with the keys.
Dhome
QUOTE (strollingplayer @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 12:25) *
It looks like the claim is already started. Did you include the management company? If not, you may have to pay to have them added to the claim (which you should be able to get back at the end). You say you have a hearing on Thursday? Tell us more. I suspect someone will have to look over your particulars of claim. We have a couple of experts, though I won't suggest sending a private message until they've actually been here to accept it, especially since you're on the clock.

No, just an injuction case against the clamping company. Yes, a hearing this coming Thursday, the 12th. It was originally last week but due to short notice, they sent the necessary paperwork to the court and requested for its adjournement on the basis of only 24 hours notice. I hope the experts would really take a look as I am really scared to lose specially if they are claiming that they have photos which they have faxed over to the court. But becasue the pictures are faxed, it was very blurred so the court requests for the original to be brought this thursday. For the life of me, dont know how they can obtain such photos. Back in April, the car was towed because they said the tyres were too big to be clamped, now they are denying this and sent some pictures with the clamped clamped.
dave-o
OK, fine to wait until after the injunction hearing to start a claim for expenses incurred (as i hope you will do if you are successful).

I hope you will get offers from members more "expert" than me, but i'll happily cast my educated layman's eye over the documents if you like. PM me and i'll give you my email address.
bama
QUOTE (Dhome @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 14:03) *
QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 12:24) *
"we were issued a car parking permit and it is our responsibility to display"


how was this 'responsibility' created/assigned/agreed ?

when we viewed the flat, we were told that the flat comes with one parking bay and that we will be given a car parking permit and
when we moved in, a permit was given to us along with the keys.


by whom ?

and where and how is it made a condition of your lease ?

Dhome
QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 14:24) *
QUOTE (Dhome @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 14:03) *
QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 10 Aug 2010 - 12:24) *
"we were issued a car parking permit and it is our responsibility to display"


how was this 'responsibility' created/assigned/agreed ?

when we viewed the flat, we were told that the flat comes with one parking bay and that we will be given a car parking permit and
when we moved in, a permit was given to us along with the keys.


by whom ?
by the real estate agency whom we paid the deposit and rent to

and where and how is it made a condition of your lease ?

there is no mention on the lease im afraid.
dave-o
Really sorry to post this in an unrelated thread, but i can;t see any other way of doing it.

Am trying to contact Gan, but inbox full.

Gan, if you are recieving this;

QUOTE
Hi.

I'm trying to help out a member who was going to have her injunction hearing today. It's been postponed for a week, so we have a little more time, but i think we have to have any extra evidence to the defendant a week early, so it's possible that we need to do it today.

Anyway, i was hoping you could do us a favour and see if there is any dirt on these guys:

LCS (local clamping services)
Erith
Kent

Defendant: Glen Ford

Thanks.
dave-o
OK, thanks.

I was going to start a new thread for this, but thought that would have been even more "naughty"
Gan
Nice to be wanted

Local Clamping Services Ltd (Company Reg. 05886137)
207 Manor Road
Erith
Kent DA8 9BR

Trading address :

279 Kings Road
Kingstanding
Birmingham
B44 0TE

Directors :

Dennis Edwin Ford (25/1/34)
47 Lambarde Ave
Eltham
London SE9 3HH

Hayley Ford (25/2/89)
132 Okehampton Crescent
Welling
DA16 1DB

Secretary:

Barry Ford (11/8/67)
225b Burrage Road
Woolwich
London
SE18 7JW

No mention of a Glenn Ford

Company has one outstanding CCJ from last year.
Dennis and Barry are also directors of Nationwide Clamping Services registered at the same address and probably the same time. They were also behind a couple of other companies Zonehold Control Services and ZCS that both dissolved with about five CCJs each.

Usual advice applies - include the land-owner in the claim because you won't get the money back from the clamper.

dave-o
This is for an injunction and is already on for next week, so no landowner claim yet.

Gan, how could this evidence be presented to the judge? Basically i want the victim to be able show that she had every reason not to go down the "pay and appeal" route because the company is so dodgy.
Fredd
Which thread does this relate to?
dave-o
This one:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t=0&start=0

I hope you can see that, given the situation, it was imperative that i make sure the other member saw this, rather than just hoped he would.
Gan
QUOTE (dave-o @ Thu, 12 Aug 2010 - 13:10) *
This is for an injunction and is already on for next week, so no landowner claim yet.

Gan, how could this evidence be presented to the judge? Basically i want the victim to be able show that she had every reason not to go down the "pay and appeal" route because the company is so dodgy.

I could provide you with the court details, case numbers and dates for the various claims against the companies.

I can also supply the company registration numbers.

You can then go through the official channels and get documents that can be presented as evidence. Companies House documents via their webcheck system are easy and inexpensive to download. Haven't tried getting the details of Small Claims cases.
dave-o
Is there a free way to get some sort of document or reference that would be considered valid proof at county court?
As stated, there is a real time limit on this.
Gan
QUOTE (dave-o @ Thu, 12 Aug 2010 - 16:08) *
Is there a free way to get some sort of document or reference that would be considered valid proof at county court?
As stated, there is a real time limit on this.

Probably not and you'd have a job to prove the links back to an official source.

Companies House reports usually cost £1 each to download. They will disclose details of the directors.

CCJ searches cost £8 at Trustonline.org They will disclose actions against the company and whether judgements were satisfied.
dave-o
I could really do with some help here. The claim is poor, the defence quite good. The hearing is next thursday.

I have a few suggestions, but most of the usual routes of attack are either not valid or marginal.

Can someone else please take a look? With the OP's permission, i can forward on the relevant docs.



One thing someone may be able to answer quickly;

Company A puts up towing signs with their name on them.
Company A tows a vehicle and holds it, accumulating "storage charges" while the owner refuses to pay
Company A is dissolved, and phoenixes as company B, replaces the signs with Company B's name.
Company B now considers itself to be owed by the victim, and is the respondent in the injunction case.

Is that right? Can Company B just take "ownership" of the situation from a dissolved company?
bama
As it understand it the Company Number is the unique identifier of the 'legal person' that is, the company.


Anything, and that included a 'thing in action' I believe, that has been transferred would have to be done by recognised documents I ass-u-me.

is there a phone number for the Co House compliance section ? maybe worth a call.


and there is this

http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gp4.shtml#ch1


Found this there:
"From the date of dissolution, any assets of a dissolved company will belong to the Crown. The company’s bank account will be frozen and any credit balance in the account will pass to the Crown. Please see chapter 2 question 4."

'bona vacantia'


so unless things were transferred out before it was dissolved...

under what form/regs was it dissolved ?
dave-o
Have mailed CH and will see what process they should have gone though.
bama
under what form/regs was it dissolved ?
dave-o
I don't know. This is all i have:
http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/b20dccde...fd8/compdetails

Have advised the OP to get their report.
bama
It was a compulsory Strike off

DISS16(SOAS) 10/07/2009 COMPULSORY STRIKE OFF SUSPENDED (DISS16(SOAS))


(Notice the date).


when you bring up a company of CO house if you click on the
" Order information on this company"

you will see what forms have been filed.


Company No. is 06080959 for easier searching
Dhome
Thank you so much everyone... I am taking everything in. One point to note though from the defendant's statements is that Company B is claiming that Company A is their trading name and on another Company B is claiming that they have sub contracted Company. I have no idea at all if this is legally sound? And another point is their refusal to show us the photo. POlice said we have every right to request it which i did but it was refused and was told that it cna only be produced perhaps in the court of law.


many many thanks everyone
dave-o
I would put them to proof that you did not have a permit. As they have not provided the photo in their defence (despite admitting its existence) they are not allowed to present it now.


BUT (as you know) we have a potentially more lethal angle brewing anyway!
Dhome
QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 13 Aug 2010 - 09:19) *
I could really do with some help here. The claim is poor, the defence quite good. The hearing is next thursday.

I have a few suggestions, but most of the usual routes of attack are either not valid or marginal.

Can someone else please take a look? With the OP's permission, i can forward on the relevant docs.



One thing someone may be able to answer quickly;

Company A puts up towing signs with their name on them.
Company A tows a vehicle and holds it, accumulating "storage charges" while the owner refuses to pay
Company A is dissolved, and phoenixes as company B, replaces the signs with Company B's name.
Company B now considers itself to be owed by the victim, and is the respondent in the injunction case.

Is that right? Can Company B just take "ownership" of the situation from a dissolved company?


Yes, please forward info as you see necessary and with appropriate discretion.

Don't company B and property management have legal responsibility to notify us of such changes or is it simply a guide of conduct?

QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 13 Aug 2010 - 16:05) *
I would put them to proof that you did not have a permit. As they have not provided the photo in their defence (despite admitting its existence) they are not allowed to present it now.


BUT (as you know) we have a potentially more lethal angle brewing anyway!


Correct me if im wrong, this means that we can say to the judge that they have refused to give us a copy of these photos when requested and that we can request that those photos not be taken as proof. Please clarify if I'm mistaken.

Many many thanks
dave-o
It means (someone correct me if i am wrong) that you ask them to prove there was no permit. Either they cannot do so, or they try to show the photograph. If they do, the photograph should not be admissable, as they have not provided you with it 2 weeks before the hearing.

My experience is of small claims, not injunctions, so i could be wrong.
Dhome
BUT (as you know) we have a potentially more lethal angle brewing anyway!
[/quote]


Thank you sooo much... Have a good weekend!

QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 13 Aug 2010 - 16:17) *
It means (someone correct me if i am wrong) that you ask them to prove there was no permit. Either they cannot do so, or they try to show the photograph. If they do, the photograph should not be admissable, as they have not provided you with it 2 weeks before the hearing.

My experience is of small claims, not injunctions, so i could be wrong.


I understand now but they have filed the papers along with the photographs and faxed it to the court before the Injunction hearing as they claimed they cannot attend due to 24 hours short notice. It's all very dark so the judge has requested the originals for the next hearing.

Thanks
dave-o
Could be it's different for injunction hearings then.

Have the court replied re you request for a copy of the pics?
Dhome
QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 13 Aug 2010 - 16:40) *
Could be it's different for injunction hearings then.

Have the court replied re you request for a copy of the pics?



No the request was made to the clamping company (Company A) a few months back and the court have provided us copies. I believe I have sent you on pm.

Many thanks
dave-o
I have pics of the signs but i think you are talking about pics of the permit (supposedly) not in your window? I haven't got those.
Dhome
QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 13 Aug 2010 - 16:58) *
I have pics of the signs but i think you are talking about pics of the permit (supposedly) not in your window? I haven't got those.


I'm afraid we dont have a copy of the permit, have asked for it from the property management but was told they don't have copies themselves.
Any other info you need, just send me an email and i will respond as wuick as i can.

Many many thanks
Dhome
Hi,

Thanks to Pepipoo and Dave-o we won our fast track claim case against the clamping company. Judge awarded all our money claims and our car back no charge. But i've learned and as you all know, getting the money back, enforcing CCJ is the tricky bit. Help please!

MAny thanks
DancingDad
IS this from this thread ???
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...st&p=493771
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