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bobobob
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2010
Date of the NIP: - 96 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 97 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A55 The Warren (Roadworks, Est Bound), Flitshire
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Recorded
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I remember the roadworks, I do not remember a sign stating the speed limit

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Wales

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 01 Aug 2010 17:13:52 +0000
peterguk
Just to clarify...

Can you explain why the NIP was so late?
bobobob
I am in the process of moving house. The registered address is still the old house. The mail is redirected and the original NIP did not arrive. Mid Wales Constab contacted West Mercia and they called me by phone (I have a firearms cert) they arranged to come over and meet me and hand delivered the NIP (great service eh!!!). Thats why the date on the NIP is 30/7/10)
bobobob
I was thinking of asking for photo/video and calibration evidence. Any thoughts ?

BaggieBoy
Since your not entitled to any evidence unless you go to court and plead not guilty, the chances of getting anything at this stage is low. Asking for photographs "to aid with the identification of the driver" does often result in photographs being sent however.
Logician
It is too late now to check that the temporary limit was properly signed, but you could check with the county council Highways Dept that it was properly authorised by a Traffic Regulation Order. It is not unknown for these to be defective.
microgerry
You must be so unlucky! I have just been reading your other thread about writing off your car on the motorway in March. Thought you didn't have a car for months as a result of the insurance company dragging their heels. Or am I mistaken?

BaggieBoy
QUOTE (microgerry @ Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 13:54) *
You must be so unlucky! I have just been reading your other thread about writing off your car on the motorway in March. Thought you didn't have a car for months as a result of the insurance company dragging their heels. Or am I mistaken?

I think that was a poster called "bobobo", this one has an extra "b" on the end.
desktop_demon
There is an viable argument on whether the NIP has been served within the statutory 14 day limit. I understand the OP was moving and that might mean that the NIP was sent to the old address. But it seems it was never received at the old address or any address - or so I deduce from what is described above. So if it was sent but not received that would be questionable service....
bobobob
No there was no earlier NIP - this was the first.

I am thinking of sending the following email to the CTO address on the NIP.

I have received a NIP dated the 30/7/20 for an offence on the 25/4/10 concerning vehicle xxxx.

Firstly, do you still want to proceed with this action since the NIP was not served within the statutory 14 day limit?

If so, then please supply me with the video/photo evidence to aid in the identification of the driver. This is a general farm vehicle and used by more than one person. Also, to save time and reduce costs, could you also provide a copy of the calibration certificate for the speed monitoring equipment on the day of the offence and a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order authorising the temporary limit plus evidence that it was duly signed.

Yours etc.....
Gan
Don't ask for anything more than the photos to aid ID. Don't mention the late NIP when you request them.

You're not entitled to any evidence unless you've pleaded not guilty and if the police think you're on a fishing expedition you'll get nothing.
peterguk
QUOTE (bobobob @ Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 20:16) *
No there was no earlier NIP - this was the first.

I am thinking of sending the following email to the CTO address on the NIP.

Firstly, do you still want to proceed with this action since the NIP was not served within the statutory 14 day limit?


They will almost cetainly proceed to court should you dispute good service of the NIP, since there is a presumption it was served 2 business days following posting. It is for you to convince the mags it never arrived.

FYI, i had my postman as my witness to late delivery, in the middle of a postal strike, and still lost in the mags and crown courts. Won in the High Court though.

This is not to disuade you, merely to ensure you are aaware of the realities...
andy_foster
QUOTE (bobobob @ Sun, 1 Aug 2010 - 18:51) *
The mail is redirected and the original NIP did not arrive. Mid Wales Constab contacted West Mercia and they called me by phone (I have a firearms cert) they arranged to come over and meet me and hand delivered the NIP (great service eh!!!). Thats why the date on the NIP is 30/7/10)



QUOTE (bobobob @ Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 20:16) *
No there was no earlier NIP - this was the first.


?Que
bobobob
Sorry ?


QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 22:06) *
QUOTE (bobobob @ Sun, 1 Aug 2010 - 18:51) *
The mail is redirected and the original NIP did not arrive. Mid Wales Constab contacted West Mercia and they called me by phone (I have a firearms cert) they arranged to come over and meet me and hand delivered the NIP (great service eh!!!). Thats why the date on the NIP is 30/7/10)

i don't understand

QUOTE (bobobob @ Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 20:16) *
No there was no earlier NIP - this was the first.


?Que

Sorry
bobobob
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 21:31) *
Don't ask for anything more than the photos to aid ID. Don't mention the late NIP when you request them.

You're not entitled to any evidence unless you've pleaded not guilty and if the police think you're on a fishing expedition you'll get nothing.


Surely, the court will have to take that I tried to sort this out at the earliest time in to consideration just as with any case. As I understand it they will have to allow an application for a costs order against the police if it goes to court. If something they do not release causes the case to be found in my favour then I would get full costs awarded.
southpaw82
QUOTE (bobobob @ Tue, 3 Aug 2010 - 11:16) *
Surely, the court will have to take that I tried to sort this out at the earliest time in to consideration just as with any case. As I understand it they will have to allow an application for a costs order against the police if it goes to court. If something they do not release causes the case to be found in my favour then I would get full costs awarded.


I hate the word "surely", especially when it's used to emphasise an error. You are not entitled to any evidence whatsoever prior to entering a not guilty plea. Whilst the police may provide you with some evidence prior to that point they are under no obligation to do so and their refusal will have no bearing on any costs.

Costs in favour of defendants do not come from the police, as the police are not a party to the prosecution (you would be prosecuted by the Crown).

Your idea to ask for calibration certificates, traffic orders and evidence of correct signage is half-baked, to say the least - you've been given advice, now heed it.
henrik777
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 1 Aug 2010 - 23:42) *
It is too late now to check that the temporary limit was properly signed, but you could check with the county council Highways Dept that it was properly authorised by a Traffic Regulation Order. It is not unknown for these to be defective.


I would like to obtain the following information under the Freedom Of
Information Act.

All requests for information contained within this email relate to the
section of road within the scope of the proposed Temporary Traffic
Regulation Order
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/legislation/0...broughtonen.pdf
namely The A55 Trunk Road (Broughton,
Flintshire) (Temporary Traffic
Restrictions) Order 2009.


With the The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure
Regulations 1992 in mind i would like the following information :-

1. Which chief officer(s) of police were given statutory notice of
this order and when and how was this notice given ?
2. Which traffic authorities, if any, were given statutory notice
and when and how was this notice given ?
3. Which chief officer(s) of fire authority were given statutory
notice of this order and when and how was this notice given ?
4. Which newspapers published the notice of intention to make the
order and when did this appear in the paper(s) ?
5. Which newspapers published the notice of making of the order and
when did this appear in the paper(s) ?
6. Are there any footways, bridleways, cycle tracks and by ways open
to all traffic within the area of the order ? Where are they ?



Thank you for your email below which has been passed to me to reply. I
will answer your queries in the order you have raised them.

1. The Chief Constable of the North Wales Police was given written
notice of the intention to make the Order concerned by post on the 14th
August 2010. He was subsequently informed of the making of the Order on
the 3rd September 2010.
2. The Welsh Ministers, who made the Order, are the traffic authority
for the length of the A55 covered by the Order. Flintshire County
Council were also notified by post on the 14th August 2009.
3. The Chief Fire Officer of the North Wales Fire and Rescue Service was
given notice of the intention to make the Order by post on the 14th
August 2009.
4. The Notice of intention to make the Order was published in the
Flintshire Evening Leader on the 20th August 2009.
5. The Notice of the making of the Order was published in the Flintshire
Evening Leader on the 3rd September 2009.
6. There is a pedestrian/equestrian bridge over the A55 to the west of
Billbury Wood. There are Public Footpaths located three-quarters of a
mile to the west of Warren Bank Interchange, half a mile to the east of
Warren Bank Interchange and at Green End Farm. If you need information
about rights of way at this location Flintshire County Council are
responsible for maintaining these and hold the definitive maps
highlighting them so they would be better placed to provide any
information you require.

I hope this information answers your queries.





The date in # 1 should be 2009 and was a typo.

Some pics and info here.

Cheers


bobobob
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 3 Aug 2010 - 18:46) *
QUOTE (bobobob @ Tue, 3 Aug 2010 - 11:16) *
Surely, the court will have to take that I tried to sort this out at the earliest time in to consideration just as with any case. As I understand it they will have to allow an application for a costs order against the police if it goes to court. If something they do not release causes the case to be found in my favour then I would get full costs awarded.


I hate the word "surely", especially when it's used to emphasise an error. You are not entitled to any evidence whatsoever prior to entering a not guilty plea. Whilst the police may provide you with some evidence prior to that point they are under no obligation to do so and their refusal will have no bearing on any costs.

Costs in favour of defendants do not come from the police, as the police are not a party to the prosecution (you would be prosecuted by the Crown).

Your idea to ask for calibration certificates, traffic orders and evidence of correct signage is half-baked, to say the least - you've been given advice, now heed it.



SO, what is the advice? Should I just wait for the summons ? What happens if they can't serve it ? If they do, what should I do ?
The Rookie
Follow Henriks advice on the temporary limits legality, otherwise you name the driver and accept the FPN.

Once the driver is named (at your correct address) why would they not be able to serve a summons?

Simon
bobobob
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Aug 2010 - 13:36) *
Follow Henriks advice on the temporary limits legality, otherwise you name the driver and accept the FPN.

Once the driver is named (at your correct address) why would they not be able to serve a summons?

Simon



I was thinking of the summons for no response to the NIP
peterguk
QUOTE (bobobob @ Fri, 13 Aug 2010 - 15:43) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 11 Aug 2010 - 13:36) *
Follow Henriks advice on the temporary limits legality, otherwise you name the driver and accept the FPN.

Once the driver is named (at your correct address) why would they not be able to serve a summons?

Simon



I was thinking of the summons for no response to the NIP


They've hand delivered a reminder/2nd NIP, so won't summons you for the 1st one. Ensure you return the S.172 within 28 days.
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