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sackville
Failure to provide driver's details Section 172

Speeding offence whilst car being taken out for test drive with my mother in passenger seat in Nov 2009 (in Liverpool– my parents address and my permanent address where car registered to)

Ownership transferred to mum 5 days after offence as car didn’t sell.

NIP received at end of Jan was the second NIP sent out but the first one I received.

Replied to police at start of Feb saying I did not have the driver’s details.

From Feb to March 2010 mother was out of country, telephoned her to check - she did not retain any driver's details

Last week I went to court, self-represented. I had evidence to show I was not in the city (I work AND live in Nottingham, offence was in Liverpool) during time of offence- but court not interested in seeing this. Also had evidence to show mum was out of country at time of receiving NIP- again court were not interested.

I saw photo evidence- not clear who driver is, my mum is in passenger seat but she is so small it is hard to make her out).

Re-trial arranged for 4 weeks time as court have requested my mum’s presence.

I have statements from my mother and brother that confirm the above as well as evidence of transfer of ownership, photos of my mother in the car passenger seat that show she cannot be seen from a rear-view taken photo. Also have phone bills to mother from my brother (who lives with my Mum).

I trust all this shows "reasonable dilligence" under section 172 (4) and that it wasn't practicable under 172 (7) (b) for me to identify the driver.
Any other advice much appreciated

P.S. I myself have 6 points, all of which were acquired in March 2010 for speeding
jobo
QUOTE (sackville @ Tue, 27 Jul 2010 - 14:13) *
Replied to police at start of Feb saying I did not have the driver’s details.


what EXACTLY did you say
sackville
that at the time of receiving the NIP I contacted mother (who was abroad) and she confirmed that neither person who test drove the car called back to pursue the purchase and she never had the details (had them on a piece of paper which was thrown away a long time ago)

i asked the police to advise me further and was then issued with a court summons

jobo
that isnt exact, is it ?

what i was hopping you had said was that the car was left in the care of you mother ( name and address)to sell and that the offence was committed by a prospective purchased, name unknow

is this anything like your reply
desktop_demon
Another question might be who allowed to car to be driven? It would seem from the above outline of events that the OP's mother was the person keeping the vehicle at the time of the vehicle test drive.

So one possible response from the OP was that he didn't know who was driving and was not the PKV at the time. It might be argued that the OP could have given his mothers name as the only information known to him that might help identify the driver.

jobo
QUOTE (desktop_demon @ Tue, 27 Jul 2010 - 15:12) *
Another question might be who allowed to car to be driven? It would seem from the above outline of events that the OP's mother was the person keeping the vehicle at the time of the vehicle test drive.

So one possible response from the OP was that he didn't know who was driving and was not the PKV at the time. It might be argued that the OP could have given his mothers name as the only information known to him that might help identify the driver.


indeed, but since the OP is reluctant to tell us EXACTLY what he told them, re his mother its hard to tell if he met his 172 obligations or not ?

and we havent touched on the test drivers insurance yet
sackville
As i left the car with my mother 3/52 before the offence, she was the actual keeper of the car since 3/52 before the offence. I became the actual keeper of another vehicle from this time. It was left with my mother with the intention of selling.

As it didn't sell, registration was transferred to her. I became the registered keeper of my new vehicle on the same date, which is registered to my address in Notts.

The vehicle in question was used on the road in question for the sole purpose of test drives during November. My mother allowed the car to be driven by the test drivers, whom she confirmed had appropriate third party insurance.
jobo
QUOTE (sackville @ Tue, 27 Jul 2010 - 15:26) *
As i left the car with my mother 3/52 before the offence, she was the actual keeper of the car since 3/52 before the offence. I became the actual keeper of another vehicle from this time. It was left with my mother with the intention of selling.

As it didn't sell, registration was transferred to her. I became the registered keeper of my new vehicle on the same date, which is registered to my address in Notts.

The vehicle in question was used on the road in question for the sole purpose of test drives during November. My mother allowed the car to be driven by the test drivers, whom she confirmed had appropriate third party insurance.


whats 3/52 ?

your not making this easy

is this exactly what you told them, ie you didnt give you ma s name and address
sackville
and yes I did give my mother's name.

i gave them my ma's name and address and 3/52 means 3 weeks.

p.s. what is a PKV
jobo
172 s are quite tricky and its really important what you said

they have sent the 172 / nip to you as RK , but the reasonable diligence requirement is not on the RK its on the Person Keeping the Vehicle arguably your mother

w3hat you needed to have done is give all the info you had to give, the car was up for sale, your mother was the PKV and give your mother name and address

If you have done this you have a very good defence

the police should then have sent a 172 request to your mother

and the charges should be against her not you
sackville
this is what i said to them in court, that I provided my mother's details to the police and assumed they would contact her, but the court said as RK, I should have brought my ma as a witness, hence the re-trial.
jobo
dont think youve got a retrial

youve been to a plea hearing and now have a date for the real hearing, unless theres something you havent told us ?

taking your mother along to confirm she was the PKV is a very good idea
sackville
well the prosecution called it a retrial. what else do you need to know?

my mother has written a statement to send to cps to confirm she was PKV and she will be attending court.

do you have any other advice
sackville
especially in regards to statements etc
southpaw82
My advice is to tell us exactly what you told the police... not the court, not the CPS but the police.
sackville
Thanks people. (Ok. Here is what I said in my first communication to police:)

I am very sorry that I am not able to provide the details of the driver who committed the alleged offence on DD/MM/YY

On that day, I was at work (place of work and job given) in Nottingham driving a different vehicle(Reg given). From November 2009, I intended to sell the car involved in the alleged offence, so I left it with my mother (J. Smith) in Liverpool for this purpose. There were 2 test drives to this vehicle during November, by people who noticed the sign displayed in the car whilst it was parked at the local Asda. These were the only times the car was driven on the section of the road in question, as my mother does not use the vehicle for any other reason. She drives the vehicle.... (Reg no given).

Unfortunately, neither person called back to pursue the purchase and my mother never had any of their contact details as they were local people who met my mother at the supermarket. As the car did not sell, I eventually transferred ownership to my mother on 14th November 2009 but the car remains unsold.

My mother had to fly urgently to New Zealand at the end of January to help tend to her critically ill mother. It was not appropriate for me to contact her earlier regarding this, which is why there has been some delay in my response.

I am therefore unable to provide you with the information you require. Please advise me further.

(I was then issued a summons and provided the court with this statement):

Dear Sir/Madam,
I have not failed to give the information. I stated clearly in my first letter, that the car was not in my possession on the day of the offence, it was with my parents in Liverpool at the above address. Indeed, I had transferred ownership of the vehicle to my Mother (Mrs. Joanne Smith) as indicated. I was at work in Nottingham at the time of the offence. The remaining details are evident from the aforementioned letter.

I have since spoken to my Mother on her return from New Zealand. The potential buyers of the car did not contact my mother again; therefore, she felt no need to retain any of their contact details. May I conclude by affirming that the only notification I have received regarding this offence was dated 8th Feb 2010 and I responded as quickly as I could, given the extenuating family circumstances.
Pancras
As far as I can see, you should be naming your mother on the s.172 notice as at the material time she was the person keeping the vehicle. The fact that she was in New Zealand when the NIP arrived is neither here nor there.

The Police would then have to serve a s.172 notice on your mother, and she would have to give the details of who was taking the car for a test drive. Presumably she saw some kind of documentation form the potential purchaser to satisfy herself that they were insured to drive it? If she can't do this, then they should be prosecuting her, not you.
bama
"NIP received at end of Jan was the second NIP sent out but the first one I received."

any idea when the first NIP was sent out ?
Am wondering when the clock started for the S.172 as its now the end of July....
sackville
1st NIP dated 9 days after the offence
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