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Kashif
Dear All

I was driving my friends commercial van which only allows passengers to be seated at the front as the back is for goods. 3 adults can be seated. It's a Toyota Hiace van 'S' Reg.
In the passenger seats where 2 adults can be seated, I had my wife (adult) and my boy (13) and my infant girl (3) seated since the seats are spacious all 3 were sitting comfortably on the seats and restrained by seat belts.
I was stopped by the Police and booked for having too many people in the vehicle and was issued a fixed penalty notice (FPN) of £60 with 3 penalty points, albeit I pleaded with him to just issue a non-endorsable offence. The FPN was marked with an offence code: 0533 and offence description: unsuitable and dangerous use of a vehicle.
However, upon research I couldn’t locate the offence code, as it doesn’t appear to exist. Also, the description attracts a different code: CU20
Therefore, I far as I understand, the code and description don’t correlate.
I produced my documents within the 7 days at my local Police station and 2 officers advised me on 2 different occasions that there appeared to be a discrepancy and that I ought to contest the charge and go to court on these grounds.
I don’t know what to do? I really really don’t want the points. I have also found out that the Police can send people on courses to avoid penalty points, they just pay the course fee, which is the same as the FPN. Will I be able to ask for this? I suffer from OCD (Pure-O Manifestation) and the pain of getting penalty points is constantly playing on my mind and I am suffering so much; I simply cannot let it go.

Please help...... :-(



The Rookie
Local forces use local codes, that is not the code that will go on your licenec if you accept the FPN/plead guilty/are convicted.

Errors on an FPN are not a defence in court to the substantive charge, although systematic errors can be used to cast doubt on an officers capabilities.

The Police can offer courses, you've not been offered one, it is purely at their discretion, if you want to avoid a lot of stress, accept the FPN now and move on, waiting for and then going to court will be an order of magnitude or 2 more stressful!

You appear guilty of the offence, nothing I can see you have offered as a defence, and while the officer could have used his discretion and let you off with a warning, he chose not to for some reason (attitude test perhaps) which is quite within his rights.

Simon

jobo
can you describe the arrangements you had for all three to be belted in
Logician
The code on the FPN would be the police force's own offence code, whereas CU20 is the DVLA code for driving licence endorsements. That does not constitute a discrepancy. Did the 3 year old have a child seat or booster cushion etc? That is compulsory for children under 12 or 4' 5". Courses are available for speeding and poor driving, not for this sort of offence.
ford poplar
I am guessing baby was in mother's arm, both restrained by one belt.
Baby required his own approved rear-facing(?) baby seat, which would require 1 adult space to fix. Unrestrained baby in arms would be sufficient for the Officer not to show leniency.
CuriousOrange
The girl's three years old, so not a baby (or an infant).

As pointed out, a three year old needs a child seat (unlikely to be tall enough for a booster).

"...all 3 [passengers] were sitting comfortably on the seats and restrained by seat belts..." - I bet the two kids were side by side with the belt stretched across them both.
2020Hindsight
If you had managed to fit 3 people in to the seats for 2 there is no way they could have all been restrained safely, which is suspect why the police officer issued a ticket
Kashif
Thanks for all the reponses. I have found out I can appeal to the Police before going to court. This is going to be my appeal. Please can you advise if this is OK, should I add more or less? I thank you all for being so kind and helping me. I really want to avoid getting points (I will pay the fine). Do you think they could let me off on compassionate grounds?

This is the appeal (sorry if it sounds too melodramatic);

Further to our conversation on 21st July 2010 at 13:40, I am writing to appeal against the endorsable Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN) reference .........
I would like to start, if I may, by making you aware of my registered disability(Proof of this can be provided upon request); Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), from which I have been suffering since 1994 and have been on Anti-Depressants since then.I suffer from traditional OCD and Pure O. I have attached proof of this.The relevance of this to the case is that ever since I’ve been booked; I am having very distressing recurring thoughts and this is making me very sad and depressed. I am trapped in a cycle of torment, haunted by every conceivable variation of the unwanted thought. The reason for my severe anxiety is the fear of getting 3 points at a juncture where I’ve been downsized at work and I am in financial trouble. If I get the points, my insurance premium will go up and I would lose work. My 13 year old son, who was 1 of the passengers in the vehicle at the time of the alleged contravention, also suffers from a disability; Autism and is registered disability. (Proof of this can be provided upon request).
The Officer has alleged ‘unsuitable and dangerous use of a vehicle’ under offence code 0533, for overloading the vehicle with too many passengers. This was not the case, all passengers in the vehicle including my 3 year old daughter, were seated comfortably and restrained by seatbelts. The vehicle was in no way was dangerous or unsuitable. Once I was stopped and told to step out of my vehicle, my daughter, who is very playful, climbed on her mother’s lap.
Moreover, Once I visited my local (Wembley) Police Station to produce my documents, I was told by 3 different Police officers (…….) that this code doesn’t appear to exist and the offence description doesn’t correlate with the code nor is it the right description for the alleged offence. All 3 officers advised me to contest these discrepancies in court.
I have also found out that penalty points are waived in lieu of attending courses which incur the same fee as the fine or sometimes a little more, may I please be considered for this option?
On this website: http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/is-your-c...vercrowded.html, I found that tickets are normally issued (non-endorsable) for overcrowding. And some internet forums have reported people issued with just verbal warning for such a case. I was very polite and kind with the officer in question and pleaded to him to let me off with a fine, but he simply didn’t want to know. He could have let me off with a verbal warning.

I ask you, please, reconsider, I’ll be very much obliged to you?

Please comment.....

Thank you.

K


jobo
QUOTE (Kashif @ Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 14:44) *
Dear All

I was driving my friends commercial van which only allows passengers to be seated at the front as the back is for goods. 3 adults can be seated. It's a Toyota Hiace van 'S' Reg.
In the passenger seats where 2 adults can be seated, I had my wife (adult) and my boy (13) and my infant girl (3) seated since the seats are spacious all 3 were sitting comfortably on the seats and restrained by seat belts.
I was stopped by the Police and booked for having too many people in the vehicle and was issued a fixed penalty notice (FPN) of £60 with 3 penalty points, albeit I pleaded with him to just issue a non-endorsable offence. The FPN was marked with an offence code: 0533 and offence description: unsuitable and dangerous use of a vehicle.
However, upon research I couldn’t locate the offence code, as it doesn’t appear to exist. Also, the description attracts a different code: CU20
Therefore, I far as I understand, the code and description don’t correlate.
I produced my documents within the 7 days at my local Police station and 2 officers advised me on 2 different occasions that there appeared to be a discrepancy and that I ought to contest the charge and go to court on these grounds.
I don’t know what to do? I really really don’t want the points. I have also found out that the Police can send people on courses to avoid penalty points, they just pay the course fee, which is the same as the FPN. Will I be able to ask for this? I suffer from OCD (Pure-O Manifestation) and the pain of getting penalty points is constantly playing on my mind and I am suffering so much; I simply cannot let it go.

Please help...... :-(


please explain how you had got every one sat and belted in
AFCNEAL
I'm sorry to be brutal, but unless you can explain how each passenger (3) was secure in seats (2) and seat belts (2) - please confirm as requested several times - how do you really think someone would view the claim:

'... very distressing recurring thoughts.....haunted by every conceivable variation of the unwanted thought'

Yet you appear to have wilfully exposed a child to a potentiaslly very distressing situation? If you Daughter could climb easily onto the Mother's lap, this could equally have happened whilst in motion so I wouldn't suggest you even mention that......

I think you're facing an absolute decision here - either the three passengers were in seats and their own seatbelts or they weren't. Which is it?
RD400E
As your youngest child will obviously be shorter than 1.35m then you have committed a further offence by not ensuring she was safely seated on a booster seat/cushion.
In my opinion as already mentioned from other posters above you have committed an offence and personally I would accept it and move on!
Zed Victor One
The illness that you apparently suffer from may have been exacerbated by your actions but it wan't the reason you commited this offence, all the bleating in the world about your job and insurance will have little bearing as te whole point of giving somebody a FPN is that it and related adverse affects such as a possible increase in insurance premiums are exactly as stated, a penalty.
If your expecting these 3 other officers to come forward and state that they believe you were unjustly dealt with I think your in for a surprise, the fact remains that you still had 4 people in a vehicle with only 3 seats and one of those should have had a childs seat anyway. I think you may find you got off rather lightly as had you been reported under Section 40 of the Road Traffic Act and summonsed to court it's not unheard of for fines of £300 upward to be dished out.
You also need to grasp the concept that there are no courses for offences such as this, I would respectfully suggest that your interests may be best served by accepting what you've been given, thankful that you didn't have an accident with your family seated in such a way and move on.
led zep
I agree with the above comments under the circumstances I do not beleive you have any defence.Any mitigation as per thread above will cost you a lot more than the price of a FPN.Your insurance may or may not increase but 3 into 2 seatbelts will not go the advice overall is take the penalty.
Kashif
Dear All,

Thank you so much for the 'real' advice you have given; the 3 PC's and the 2 solicitors I spoke to basically led me to believe that I had a case and that I should take it to court for incorrect offence code and description.

One of the solicitors also said I should 'plead ignorance' or 'not guilty' whereby it'll be upon the PC in question to prove I had indeed committed the offence; bearing in mind he was on his own and am not sure if he had a camera in his vehicle. What would you all say to that?

I am sorry but I am confused?? What should I do? I am so sorry???

Best,

K
jobo
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 29 Jul 2010 - 14:25) *
please explain how you had got every one sat and belted in


Is this a secret ?
MartinHP71
QUOTE (jobo @ Fri, 30 Jul 2010 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 29 Jul 2010 - 14:25) *
please explain how you had got every one sat and belted in


Is this a secret ?


Well certainly the OP doesn't want to answer it. huh.gif

QUOTE (Kashif @ Fri, 30 Jul 2010 - 16:28) *
One of the solicitors also said I should 'plead ignorance' or 'not guilty' whereby it'll be upon the PC in question to prove I had indeed committed the offence; bearing in mind he was on his own and am not sure if he had a camera in his vehicle. What would you all say to that?


Are you telling us that the advice from a qualified Solicitor was to plead ignorance of the law (not a defence) or plead not guilty and possibly win your case on the basis that Police Officer doesn't have a picture and so can't prove his case ?

Is he offering to represent you and what sort of fee's is he requesting ?
Pancras
QUOTE (Kashif @ Fri, 30 Jul 2010 - 16:28) *
Dear All,

Thank you so much for the 'real' advice you have given; the 3 PC's and the 2 solicitors I spoke to basically led me to believe that I had a case and that I should take it to court for incorrect offence code and description.

One of the solicitors also said I should 'plead ignorance' or 'not guilty' whereby it'll be upon the PC in question to prove I had indeed committed the offence; bearing in mind he was on his own and am not sure if he had a camera in his vehicle. What would you all say to that?

I am sorry but I am confused?? What should I do? I am so sorry???

Best,

K

This is some of the worst advice I have ever seen. As for all of the nonsense about paying the fine but not wanting the points, well unfortunately that is out of the question because it is an endorsable offence. The magistrates will view all of this very dimly.

Playing Devils advocate, they will view the matter as you having an unrestrained child in a commercial vehicle which was not compliant with any of the regulations. Unless you can come up with something better than 'the police officer didn't have a photograph' then they will find you guilty, and you are likely to be convicted, and face a stiffer penalty than paying the fixed penalty. If this is still an option (i.e. the 28 days have not expired) I would suggest you take this.

Incidentally, because if you are convicted then you will have to disclose it to your insurance company regardless of whether they endorse your licence with points or not, and you will probably have higher premiums as a result so this argument is a complete waste of time.
Kashif
In reply to your questions; 1) My 2 kind were sat and belted on one seat, but since it is a van, it's a BIG seat designed to fit a large adult. 2) The solicitor said he could get me off on technicality, perhaps, and will charge £1000 for doing so.

Thanks

K
AFCNEAL
Get a new solicitor or at least get the current one to describe to you what the technicality actually is. Your children were not properly secured by your own admission- it's hard to see a defence to that.it's not as simple as adding their weight/dimensions together and claiming that fulfils the legal requirements, particularly when you admitted the younger child 'escaped' the belt easily?
Logician
Your 3 year old was legally required to be seated in a child seat. She was not. Therefore you are guilty of the offence. Stop torturing yourself about this and accept the fixed penalty, is my advice.
MartinHP71
QUOTE (Kashif @ Mon, 2 Aug 2010 - 16:19) *
The solicitor said he could get me off on technicality, perhaps, and will charge £1000 for doing so.


If there was a technicality then someon on here would have probably seen it, but the key word is PERHAPS and for that he will charge you £1000 and not get you off.

I am sure there are people on here who will only charge you £500 and perhaps get you off as well .. rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif rolleyes.gif
Kashif
Thank you all for the advice, I'll surrender my licence and pay the fine!
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