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Rosie64
Hi
I have been using my friends car for several months. He gets a NIP and responds giving my details. I receive NIP but cannot complete as my Mother and I share my daughters school run using this vehicle so am unable to identify driver. It is a spontaneous arrangement and depends largely if she stays at my house or not. I return uncompleted form with a covering letter explaining this (within time frame). Asked Police to contact me and provide me with any description of person driving to assist me. Heard nothing. Assumed it had gone away then received summons for the two above offences. Have sent letter to Criminal Justice Unit, CPS and Court with copies of letters I had sent to the Policeman that iniitiated prosecution. Criminal Justice Unit called me to tell me there was no description of the person driving the vehicle and that the witness was a Council Employee. Went on to say I should have received some information that I hadn't and that their records showed two letters to me had been returned to them.

I havent entered a plea and am going to court on 21st July and during my last telephone call to the CJU they told me someone would ring me before the court date, which I will chase up later today as I should have been contacted by the Policeman that initiating the case.

I was intending to ask the Magistrate how I should plea as I cannot tell them who was driving and neither of us remember jumping a red light.

I am beginning to think that it might be malicious as I don't leave home until 8.10 and the offence allegedly took place at 8.10

What should I do?
Any assistance would really be appreciated as I am scared stiff

Rosie
Top Cat
Just stating that you share a vehicle and so you don't know is not going to be nearly enough.

The offence of failing to supply the info on a s.172 is 6 points and up to a £1000 fine.

Also you state that you leave at home at 08.10 but the offence was at 0810 so does your mother occasionally leave earlier than you when using the car? There could be your answer
jobo
what exact did you put in your letter

did you name you mother as a possible driver or just say my mum ?
Rosie64
I know the onus is on me to prove who was driving the car but how can I? If a day is the same as any other day why would I remember if I had taken my daughter to school or my mother had as we don't write it down anywhere. If I had been stopped by the Police then obviously that day would have stuck in my memory.

If the Policeman had contacted me as he was supposed to have done and said there was no description of the driver then I would have tossed a coin to decide which one of us was to take the rap. As it happens now I cannot do that as the time period for the NIP has obviously expired.

My Mother doesn't leave the house any earlier I have checked.

Oh blimey looks like I am going to get at least 9 points then

Thanks for your help
jobo
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 13:56) *
what exact did you put in your letter

did you name you mother as a possible driver or just say my mum ?


no it wont be 9, it might be 6, try answering this question
MartinHP71
QUOTE (Rosie64 @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 14:12) *
Oh blimey looks like I am going to get at least 9 points then

Thanks for your help


It shouldn't be possible to get 9 points. They either find you guilty of failing to name the driver in which case you get 6 points OR they find you guilty of running the red light which is normally 3 points.

The onus is on you to convince a magistrate that you couldn't possibly identify the driver so you will need to show that you have looked. Did either of you have medical appointments, do you have receipts in your handbags which might trigger a memory. Was something special at school at that day. Have you asked friends. All of these are ways you could show you have investigated.
Pete D
You say "I don't leave home until 8.10 and the offence allegedly took place at 8.10" and you say your Mum does not leave any earlier, does this not indicate it was you driving. We have seen many cases of dual charging that if you admit the offence then the Failure to Furnish 6points and large fine is dropped. Pete D
jobo
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (Rosie64 @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 14:12) *
Oh blimey looks like I am going to get at least 9 points then

Thanks for your help


It shouldn't be possible to get 9 points. They either find you guilty of failing to name the driver in which case you get 6 points OR they find you guilty of running the red light which is normally 3 points.

The onus is on you to convince a magistrate that you couldn't possibly identify the driver so you will need to show that you have looked. Did either of you have medical appointments, do you have receipts in your handbags which might trigger a memory. Was something special at school at that day. Have you asked friends. All of these are ways you could show you have investigated.


at the moment we need to find out if she named all possible drivers or not, if not a reasonable diligence defence is pointless, that even allowing for the fact that she may not be the Keeper ? , so no RD required
Rosie64
I said i tried to contact policeman and got no reply. I also said that the owner of the vehicle when he was issued with the first NIP tried to contact the policeman in question and didn't get any answers or reply either. I said I simply wanted the assistance of the police.

I said mymother often stays at my house and on the days she does, she takes my daughter to school in my car. She uses the car in question as there is a severe parking problem in my road so when she comes to my house she leaves her own car at home. This is a spontaneous arrangement and is not documented anywhere. I asked the Police for their help in identifying the driver as we have no idea.

I refererred to her as My mum I didn't give her name and address.

If the evidence they hold were to be supplied to substantiate the allegation as described whoever was responsible would plead guilty to the offence

jobo
it would seem to me, that not saying my mum,,,,, mrs smith of 10 the grove, has left you in a difficult position as you have not met even the most basic requirement of naming the possible drivers


however its not all bad news

they cant6 do you for the red light as they dont know who was driving, so its 6 points only and,,,, as they have summonsed you for both charges, it is possible to offer to plead guilty to the red light offence IF they drop the other( allowing that you suddenly remember it was you driving all along),,, you would need to attend court for either of these to work
Rosie64
Thanks for the advice. So how do I do that, do I have to just wait until I am called and say that to the Magistrate or see someone before the case? - sorry I have never been to court before
jobo
you would need to ask to see the CPS before the case for an off the record chat, not and never in front of the mags


just see the usher and request a quick chat if they accept great if not, then go for [plan b which is to plead guilty to the 172 and not guilty to the red light,
Rosie64
Many thanks
jobo
i think you would need to plead not guilty to both in the first instance,,, but wait for someone to confirm this before doing any thing
iwt
Hi.
Could be risky, (actually probably is) but you could always e-mail enquiries@cps.gsi.gov.uk and ask them.
--
Regards, SlidDownAHill.
neil3841
QUOTE (iwt @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 18:44) *
Hi.
Could be risky, (actually probably is) but you could always e-mail enquiries@cps.gsi.gov.uk and ask them.
--
Regards, SlidDownAHill.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooo don't do that it will give them a record (confession) that you ran a red light as you are prepared to plead guilty to it and they could still hit you with the S172. rolleyes.gif


I am not sure whether it would be usable but I wouldn't take the chance.
Ask to have a quick word with the prosecution don't do it in writing.
Mayhem007
Ita not a real problem as such...All you need do is state your case...plead not guilty and ask your Mum to be a witness in court.

All she need do is swear on the bible or give affirmation and tell the truth...i.e there is the possibility that she was driving.

The court will recognise that there is no way on earth that mother and daughter would go to this extreme to escape a penalty.
Korting
QUOTE (Rosie64 @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 13:13) *
Criminal Justice Unit called me to tell me there was no description of the person driving the vehicle and that the witness was a Council Employee.



What evidence do they have? Since when has a council employee been able to report someone for a traffic offence without any evidence to back it up?
peterguk
QUOTE (Michael 194 @ Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 00:14) *
QUOTE (Rosie64 @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 13:13) *
Criminal Justice Unit called me to tell me there was no description of the person driving the vehicle and that the witness was a Council Employee.



What evidence do they have? Since when has a council employee been able to report someone for a traffic offence without any evidence to back it up?


Witness testimony is evidence, is it not? It is for the court to decide whether they accept it.
andy_foster
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 22:45) *
Ita not a real problem as such...All you need do is state your case...plead not guilty and ask your Mum to be a witness in court.

All she need do is swear on the bible or give affirmation and tell the truth...i.e there is the possibility that she was driving.

The court will recognise that there is no way on earth that mother and daughter would go to this extreme to escape a penalty.


Any luck getting that breathalyser fitted to your PC?
Mayhem007
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 00:21) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 22:45) *
Ita not a real problem as such...All you need do is state your case...plead not guilty and ask your Mum to be a witness in court.

All she need do is swear on the bible or give affirmation and tell the truth...i.e there is the possibility that she was driving.

The court will recognise that there is no way on earth that mother and daughter would go to this extreme to escape a penalty.


Any luck getting that breathalyser fitted to your PC?


Your getting to know me so well, nice one. But in the cold light of the day, I think the OP should be aware of the difficulties and complexities of the case. Even if I had witnesses that are family, I'm not too sure I would like to put them through all that courtroom drama., because it may end out that way.
CuriousOrange
 
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Mon, 19 Jul 2010 - 22:45) *
Ita not a real problem as such...All you need do is state your case...i.e there is the possibility that [the mother] was driving.
The OP never gave their mother's details, so whether the court believe she knew who was driving or not is neither here nor there. If you don't name a driver, as a minimum you have to give as much information as you can as to the possible drivers.

QUOTE (Michael 194 @ Tue, 20 Jul 2010 - 00:14) *
What evidence do they have? Since when has a council employee been able to report someone for a traffic offence without any evidence to back it up?
Problem is it doesn't now help the OP any. They've no defence against the S172 so their best hope is for the S172 to be dropped in return for a guilty plea to the red light offence.
The Rookie
Flegg says you need to at least name the possible drivers, the OP did not do so.

Simon
Rosie64
Criminal Justice Unit called and adjourned the case til August - to give me time to look at the witness statements which I had asked for back in March but never received. If they had supplied this information I would have been able to complete the NIP and return within timescale.

Witness statements are by the Lollypop man and a LA worker who was checking the phasing of the lights. Stories of course back each other up. Although they state the car was doing about 40 miles per hour which is strange as there is always a queue at the lights and you can barely get out of 1st gear usually.

Anyway do you think I should ring CPS and have a chat with them about dropping the failing to provide
Pete D
Witness statements would not have been made available before pleading not guilty. However, have you resolved who was driving the car at the time and location. Pete D
andy_foster
If so required, by or on behalf of the Chief Officer of Police, you must provide any information that is in your power to give and that might lead to the identification of the driver. Arguably if the scammers were interested in chasing up the OP's mum, they could have written back to the OP asking for her mum's details. If the scammers had no interest in following up on anything other than an unequivocal nomination, her mum's details were arguably not information that might lead to the identification of the driver.

IIRC Mr Flegg did not provide any meaningful information, and at trial said that he wasn't riding the bike and that the only other person who had access to it said that he was not riding it. The real issue was that Flegg was clearly lying, and had fabricated the story about his friend - so the Divisional Court twisted his lie - if Flegg wasn't riding and his friend was the only other person with access to the bike, the friend must have been the rider, and this was clearly information as described above.

Rosie64
I haven't put a plea in but they have sent me the witness statements. Witnesses state that they did not see who was driving. Surely if I sent a letter to the copper before the time was up on the NIP, asking that he advise me if he had a description to assist in the identity of who was driving, and he did not reply he has to be partly to blame or am I being naive? It says on the NIP to ring or write for assistance, which is what I did. I wish I had just pleaded guilty even though I didn't and still don't know who was driving.
jobo
yes your being Naive

The Law requires the keeper, you ?, to perform reasonable diligence and if that fails to name all possible drivers

That you would very likely have got away with the RL offence, based on your or your mums word against the witness is even more annoying

your goosed on a technicality of having your mums real name which you failed to disclose

if you want to try your luck and go NG based on the info you did give being sufficient for the police purposes ie My mum relates to a specific individual who the police could easily find if they wanted too, is up to you, but I have serious doubts that you will succeed, unless you get a very sympathetic bench
Rosie64
They have dropped failing to stop at a red light so now I am stuck with failing to provide - just what I wanted - NOT. Oh well hi ho its off to court we go - to get six points and hefty fine. Will endevour to create some kind of diligence and that I asked for assistance from the police well within 28 day time frame and did not get any and hope I have a very sympathetic magistrate. Do you think it worthwhile to get a solicitor or will the outcome be the same whatever.

Thanks by the way for all your comments :
andy_foster
QUOTE (Rosie64 @ Thu, 22 Jul 2010 - 23:19) *
...and that I asked for assistance from the police well within 28 day time frame and did not get any...


It is about what you did (or possibly didn't do). Asking for help is positive. If they were unhelpful that might get you a little sympathy and/or tend to turn the mags against the scammers, but the bottom line is whether or not *you* exhausted reasonable diligence.

The 28 day time frame is for providing the required information, not for asking for assistance. If information came to light outside of the 28 days, there is a separate defence of providing information as soon as was reasonably practicable after the 28 days.
Be careful how you come across when making the point - requesting assistance reasonably promptly is part of reasonable diligence, but leaving things to the last minute (or being seen to be doing so) is not.
Rosie64
Just a thought, I am not the registered keeper. The registered keeper returned the NIP that was sent to him initially and entered my details in section C. He crossed out the part where it says "driver/hirer/purchaser" and wrote "person who borrowed my car for several weeks" does this make any difference
The Rookie
None whatsoever, as he wasn't in the car at the time, he can't say if you were the driver or not, so he's indicated who was the keeper of the car at the time.

Simon
Rosie64
Hi Guys

Went to Court yesterday and the charge for failing to stop at red light was dropped and I pleaded not guilty to the charge of "failing to Provide name of driver" and have a court date.

My dilema is I have just received some evidence that points to the fact that I now may be able to identify the driver. I asked my workplace for a copy of some information and it has only just been sent to me today - what do I do?
Kickaha
If they have dropped the failing to stop charge, being able to indentify the driver has become irrelevant IMHO. Not sure that "I now may be able to identify the driver" would help anyway, you would need to be definite.
Rosie64
But isn't one of the defences to this charge providing the information as soon as you became aware of it even if it is outside of the 28 day period, or does that mean if the first charge still stands - I am confused
The Rookie
Yes, one of the defences is that you can provide the info outside the 28days if that is when it becomes 'reasonably practical', so you should now provide that information, you should then use the late responce by your company as part of your reasoanble dilligence, stating how it was requested (hopefully you have a date well inside the 28 days when you asked for it) that the information has now been provided and that you have now confirmed the drivers ID to the scammers, it will effectively be part of your dilligence defence, showing you tried all avenues, everything you did you should document and take to court, such as checking card receipets, phone bills etc (even though they were of no help, it shows you did it!)

Simon
peterguk
QUOTE (Rosie64 @ Thu, 12 Aug 2010 - 12:42) *
My dilema is I have just received some evidence that points to the fact that I now may be able to identify the driver. I asked my workplace for a copy of some information and it has only just been sent to me today - what do I do?


Out of interest, how does this info from your employer relate to either you or your mother driving?
Rosie64
That is what I thought, thanks very much. I have copies of everything you can think of from bank statements to school calendars.

The work information is a signing in sheet, detailing what time I got into work. I would expect to be in work before a certain time if I had taken my daughter to school and much later if my Mum had because she uses my car and I have to wait for her to return before I drive into work. When I asked for it back in March the lady that deals with this couldn't find the paperwork for this particular week, but she has since found it. Funny enough now I have written that down I am not sure that would count as evidence really would it because there are days when traffic jams make you late into work
Rosie64
Hi All

Just thought I would tell everyone that The Criminal Justice Unit have dropped all charges against me.

The reason is I made a formal complaint to Essex Police complaints department about the guidance notes on the NIP not being followed by the Police and enquiring why these notes were on the form if they were not being followed etc etc.

The guidance says contact the below number if you can't complete this form blah blah blah for advice. I did this and then wrote in and still received no assistance and the time ran out on the notice.

Phew what a relief

Thanks to all of you that offered me advice. It was very helpful

Clare
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