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nikkiboy
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2010
Date of the NIP: - 1 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 81 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Marlborough Street
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? -
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Please can anybody help?

I have received a summons for contravening a red light on 12/04/10. Attached to it is a NIP that the off duty police officer claims was hand delivered through the door of my home 13/04/10.

1. I never received the NIP.

It appears to be a roadside NIP addressed to me giving notice to take proceedings against the driver (there's two options a- against you b-against the driver).

2. There is no S.172. It does not ask who the driver was an does not ask for any further information.

Page 2 has 2 options shown for the officer to certify delivery of said NIP; a-delivering document to the addressee personally and b- sending by post registered/recorded etc. The officer has selected option a served personally.

3. He's then handwritten after that "posted at addressees home address" on the document.

Just to add that we live in a house that's flats on 5 floors, post is communal (but I don't believe it was ever put through the letterbox).

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
    You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.

    (You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 06 Jul 2010 00:25:29 +0000
jobo
im not sure i understand what you have

do you mean its a fixed penalty notice

has some at the side of the road given your name and address ?

are there any statments re the offence
nikkiboy
No it's deffinately a summons to appear in court 27 July at 09.50.

There doesn't seem to be any other witness, I'm guessing the officer took my reg number and the dvla gave him my home address as I am the registered keeper.

He's included a witness statement (his) explaining how I veered around him to use a right filter lane to overtake and then cut back in. The offence I'm summonsed for is failing to comply with a red light.

Hi witness statement quotes him as saying "I recall the driver to be male".

N
jobo
no im referring to the nip

the coppers are not very good at them, like the camera people are

they seem to have completely forgotten the 172 requirement, and this alone will stop the prosicution as soon as you get to court

however to be on the safeside, id still like to understand what they sent you
nikkiboy
The first I heard of this is the letter I got on Friday morning.

In it there's:

1. A Summons to appear in court for failing to comply etc

2. Plea form

3. Mitigation form

4. Financial circumstances form

5. The officer's witness statement

6. The NIP that was supposed to have been hand delivered.

The NIP front page is addressed to me, gives details of my car and the offence. The second page (I guess the back of the original) is entitled for official use only. It gives him two options to select from to certify delivery: a) to addressee personally or b) post registered/recorded etc. He's circled the first option but then written "posted at addressees home address" after it.

Then it has his details and NOTHING else.

There's definately no s.172

N
jobo
I have my doubts about if that NIp meets the requirements

but as I said the lack of 172 is fatal to them, unless they claimed that they had ided you, which they dont

pleads not guilty, by post and they will adjourn for a month or two,

when you eve3ntualy get to court, ask them how they have ided the driver ?, get case thrown out, go home
nikkiboy
Thanks for your quick response Jobo!

Out of interest, is he allowed to hand deliver a NIP? (Or say that he has)

And is a NIP without a s.172 unlawful?

N
ford poplar
I think what jobo, and others, would like is sight of the hand-delivered form. I suggest blanking any info added by plod, scan both sides and post as per photos using tinypics (see FAQs) This FPN/NIP sounds unusual and may breach some legal requirements as it was neither served 'at the roadside' nor posted in the accepted sense of the Interpretation Act. Normally, we do not rec pasting FPNs but if you delete any FPN serial numbers and added content and show both sides of the 'blank' form I think it may be educational - unless others know/advise otherwise!
jobo
QUOTE (nikkiboy @ Tue, 6 Jul 2010 - 02:16) *
Thanks for your quick response Jobo!

Out of interest, is he allowed to hand deliver a NIP? (Or say that he has)

And is a NIP without a s.172 unlawful?

N


not unlawful, just useless biggrin.gif

I have it in my mind they need to be posted by eer post, but some one will say for def
nikkiboy
OK - bear with me while I work this out - I'm a newbie.

N
jobo
dont panic, we will be here tommorow
nikkiboy
How's this?




Hotel Oscar 87
Although not normally used the type of service described is good within the terms of Sec 1A RTOA 1988 - as amended - "by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address". However, the presumption of service of the NIP remains rebuttable, that is, service will be presumed to have been effected unless and until the contrary is proven.

The details the officer has written on the rear of the copy NIP are simply his endorsing it to prove service (what is known as a "certificate of service" - used when documents are either handed over directly to a person or hand-delivered to a lka).

There is always a risk that a NIP sent by normal post will go adrift and proving satisfactorily - sufficient to rebut the presumption of service - that it hasn't been received is relatively easy. However, in the face of an officer giving evidence to the effect that he posted the NIP through a letterbox is going to be considerably more difficult. On that basis I recommend Jobo's approach.

Plead "Not Guilty" but do not ask for any witnesses to attend. (You don't want the officer there, he might just recognise you). When attending do not allow yourself to be bullied at any stage by the court Legal Advisor or a prosecutor and do not go into the witness box. Attempts will be made to elicit some form of comment along the lines of "Surely, Mr nikkiboy can remember whether he was there or not" to which you should stick to the consistent line of "There are no admissions and there will be none". The prosecution will present their evidence - absent any evidence of the ID of the driver - at the conclsuioon of which you should be able to suggest to the court that in the absence of any evidence of who was driving that they rule there is no case to answer.

I'm sure more detailed advice will be along shortly.


jobo
as above im of the opinion that they need to send it by post, rather than putting it through your post box, even giving it to you personally would have been iffy

but some one will confirm

in the mean time sleep tight as you would seem to have a fool proof defence
nemo
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 6 Jul 2010 - 02:55) *
as above im of the opinion that they need to send it by post, rather than putting it through your post box, even giving it to you personally would have been iffy

but some one will confirm

QUOTE (Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988)
s.1 - Requirement of warning of prosecution for certain offences

(1A) A notice required by this section to be served on any person may be served on that person—

(a ) by delivering it to him;

(b ) by addressing it to him and leaving it at his last known address; or

(c ) by sending it by registered post, recorded delivery service or first class post addressed to him at his last known address.

The Rookie
Just to be clear, can the OP type out EXACTLY what the summons states, but as no S172 request appears to have been made, then there should be no S172 summons and with no S172 and no ID they can't possibly convict of the red light offence.

The OP won't want to take the stand and claim no NIP was recieved as then he can be asked if he was driving!

Simon
nikkiboy
Sorry for the delay Simon - I've just realised the OP is me.

This is exactly what the Summons says:

Offences

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx Date of Information: 22/06/2010
Prosecutor Reference: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 12/04/2010 in the City of Bristol, being a person driving a vehicle, namely a XXXXXX index xxxx xxx, failed to comply with the indication given by a traffic sign, namely a red light traffic signal, lawfully placed on or near a road, namely xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Street Contrary to section 36(1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988, regulation 10 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 and schedule 2 top the Road Traffic OPffenders Act 1988.
This offence carries penalty points
The Rookie
OK, so in line with the above, I would suggest entering a plea of not guilty, the prosecution will not be able to provide any evidence as to the ID of the driver and must fail, you MUST NOT enter the witness stand where they could ask if you were driving, you merely allow them to submit their evidence (unchallenged, don't call a witness) and then point out that they have no ID at all and therefore reasonable doubt must exist as to the ID of the driver.

Simon
nikkiboy
Thank you Simon

What about the fact that the NIP was not served? Is that irrelevant now?

N
bama
Don't lane directions such 'Left' 'Right' and 'Ahead'

need the text 'ONLY on them ?

but from the sound of things he is alleging you crossed the white line on red and then cut back when in the junction.

if that can be nailed then the above could/may/might/ prove useful if they try to move the goalposts ?

just a thought.

peterguk
QUOTE (nikkiboy @ Tue, 6 Jul 2010 - 13:24) *
Thank you Simon

What about the fact that the NIP was not served? Is that irrelevant now?

N


Do the SCP/BiB claim to have sent an NIP? If yes, then there is presumption of delivery 2 business days following posting. It would be for you to rebutt the presumption, and your success would be down to your credibilty as a witness in court.
The Rookie
Clearly Peter needs to read the thread, I normally say re-read, but think that generous in this case!

The fact that no NIP was recieved is a defence, BUT you'd have to take the stand and give evidence to its non receipt, if they then believe the word of a serving officer claiming hand delivery over your's and accept it was served then you will be sunk as whilst on the stand they can ask if you were driving.

The no driver's ID is a much better defence as far as I am concerned.

Simon
nikkiboy
Thanks again Simon

Out of interest (and just so I've got all bases covered) what if they did ask me who was driving and I say either "I don't know" (as I've not been asked to present a defence for that) or I say "not me" on the same grounds?

Surely they're out of time to serve a NIP on anyone else or a s.172 on me (the registered keeper).

Lastly, if the prosecution wants to cross examine me (because I plead not guilty) and I'm asked to take the stand, do I simply refuse? And what should my reasons be?

Sorry to burden you with more but as you've probably guessed this is all completely new to me.

N
The Rookie
There is no time limit on an S172 request, the NIP is only to the RK, so no NIP has to be sent if someone else was named as a driver, though it may be called a NIP, it is not!

They can only ask you if you are in the witness box, if you are on the floor of the court you are acting as your own represenattion, are not a witness and cannot (well should not) be asked, if asked, you merely point out that you are not a witness and decline to be one, you are not a witness for the prosecution so they shouldn't ask you to take the stand, if they do, just look at them funny and they'll shut up!

Simon
nikkiboy
Brilliant!

Thank you for all your help.

I'll let you know how it goes.

N
nikkiboy
Dear all

Not the overwhelming success I was hoping to achieve.

Court date was this week and I've never been so well prepared for a fight - my thanks to all involved!

But it turned out to be just a hearing to discuss all the matters surrounding the case, to hear my issues, plea (although I'd pleaded not guilty by post) and decide on what witnesses were needed. It took the wind out of my sails completely.

I skirted around the issues until the magistrate left me with no option, she asked my outright if my plea was because I wasn't driving, wasn't there or the Police Officer was mistaken in his report. I had no choice but to show my hand and I explained that there was a duty under S 172 to request the driver details on the driver information form. I pointed out that, as that had not been done, the driver had not been identified and there was no case to answer.

She agreed and everybody made notes. Then she asked me if that wasn't the case would I then be pleading guilty. I didn't know what to do about that and I said No but she pushed me for more information.

Would I be right in assuming that under the RTOA 1988 the NIP has to be served in a certain format and if that format was not observed (no driver detail request) then the NIP hasn't been served.

Any body?

N
The Rookie
While it was valid to ask details of your defence, you didn't have to give as much detail as you did, you merely had to say that the prostitution hasn't enough evidence to prove their case. When asked if otherwise you would have plead guilty, you should have told them to ask the driver!

They still have no driver ID, you must stick to that, its irrelevant whether the driver (whoever the heck that may be) would plead guilty or not, they don't know who the driver was, and not having been served an S172 request, you haven't determined who the driver was either.

Sounds like you were being bullied, that should not happen, but the point is, think before answering anything, they have no driver ID, they have to have one.

Simon
nikkiboy
Thanks Simon

I did feel quite bullied actually but had absolutely no idea what I could and couldn't say.

Case is now scheduled for 30th of Sept. I'm just hoping a get a note saying it's been struck out - is that possible or can they wriggle out of it somehow?

N
The Rookie
The CPS may drop it now they know they have no evidence as to drivers ID, they may continue.

Rememebre when it gets to court, DO NOT go anywhere near the witness box, let the CPS present their evidence, ask who the driver was, point out they don't know, and at the 'half time' suggest the case is dropped as there is no case to answer.

Simon
nikkiboy
Thanks Simon.

Could they issue/serve a belated S172 between now and then (someone earlier in the link said there was a 14 day time limit on the NIP but none on the S172).

N
The Rookie
They could serve an S172 now but there are 2 issues.....

1/ you've been summonsed for the offence, to suumons you they should have enough evidence and not question you thereafter (this was the Labour disarray's argument for 28 day detention without charge so that questioning could continue), not sure how that tallies with a statutory request though, altough who knows who was driving over 6 months ago off the top of their head......

2/ If it's a written S172 you have 28 days to reply......so after the court date!

Simon
peterguk
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 26 Aug 2010 - 18:45) *
2/ If it's a written S172 you have 28 days to reply......so after the court date!


You can almost hear it.. CPS asking for adjournment whilst they wait to find out who was driving laugh.gif
nikkiboy
Hi Peterguk

Do you think that's likely? And is there a way out?

N
The Rookie
Pete's 'supposing', no-one knows what they will do.......

Simon
Pancras
Sounds to me like a monumental cock-up on the behalf of the Police. It is for the prosecution to prove to the court beyond reasonable doubt that you was the driver. If they have never served a s.172 notice then there is no way of them doing this.

Do not take the stand yourself under any circumstances though.
nikkiboy

Hi All

Just to let you know that after the pre-hearing a date was set for the 30th September to hear the case.

I am delighted to share with you that I received a letter this morning from the CPS entitled Notice of Discontinuance.

In a nutshell, they've decided there's not enough evidence to secure a prosecution and the matter is now done with.

A huge thank you to everybody who offered advice, particularly "The Rookie", I could not have done this alone.

Many, many thanks.

Nik
scotch
Well done!!!!!!!!!!!! A GREAT RESULT!!!!!!!!!!!
Pancras
Good result.
The Rookie
Well done, you held your nerve, they never got to see your cards before they folded!

Now you need to work out your costs claim, all that travel, all that printing/copying and visits to the scene of the alleged crime.

Simon
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