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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
masterkik
Hi,

I need help with fighting back the PCN received and have attached the ticket, as was late by 5 minutes and would like to question the accuracy of the handheld device and if they have any maintenance record of it being serviced.

Secondly have seen a lot of mentions of "Authorisation from the secretary of state for the Sign", what does that mean and can it be used.

Lastly have also seen mention of section "The PCN fails to comply with regulation 3(2)(b) contained within Statutory Instrument 2007/3482 and it is therefore my belief that the PCN is not lawful as the PATAS key case, Als Bar v Wandsworth." not too sure how that would help either in my case could someone explain this point as well.

Any additional points that can be used in this case would be much appreciated, thanks.

Regards

MK
clark_kent
If its a one hour bay surely the PCN has been issued early 9.58 to 10.58 is one hour so no contravention has occured.
Ticket ripper
Masterkik

Both sides of PCN please. Also photos of bay and signs if possible.

I am assuming that as a code 30 it was on street but we need confirmation that this is the case.

what were the restrictions detailed on the sign(if no photo available) i.e 1 hour as CK asked?

They have stated the 14 and 28 day periods correctly but then add "(1.e date 28 days forward)" I would have thought this was quite confusing unless you are familiar with the legal distinctions using "within" and "beginning with" formula. Is there an argument for possible confusion here that an adjudicator might accept?

** edited as Orford's post pointed out it is likely it is 9.53 not 9.58 and on looking closely and comparing the 3's I tend to agree with him.
orford
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 27 Jun 2010 - 12:25) *
If its a one hour bay surely the PCN has been issued early 9.58 to 10.58 is one hour so no contravention has occured.
I think it might be 9.53
strollingplayer
Looking at the 3 printed further up the ticket, and the 3 at the bottom, I would think it's an 8 - the centre bar extends too far for it to be a 3.
Korting
If you enlarge the picture and compare the 3 to the 8, it is definitely 9.58
SchoolRunMum
What about the back of the PCN?

No-one can tell you if it's missing some wording under regulation 3(2)(b) unless you show a scan/pic of the back. Can you also get pics of the bay lines & signs, including the lines at both ends of the relevant group of bays?

And perhaps the OP can also confirm if it says 9.53 or 9.58 on the PCN?
masterkik
Hi,

Thanks for everyones reply back, the time was definately 9.53 to 10.58 maybe it was the scanned copy that didnt come out that well. I have now attached the back copy of the PCN and will try and take photos of the bay and sign as well which said "1 hour, No return within 1 hour", but does anyone agree that the handheld device used by the traffic oficr could be questioned as well for accuracy as well if not properly maintained.

Secondly someone mentioned the term "OP", what does that mean ?.

Hope to hear back with the advise soon, as have to email the council back my appeal end of the week thanks.


Regards

MK
SchoolRunMum
OP = you, the Original Poster of a new thread.

When appealing, you can certainly ask the Council to provide you with the CEO's notes to show that the handheld device was checked for accuracy against the p&d machine. You should also ask for the Traffic Order relating to that street (they can email this to you or you can go & take a copy at the Council Offices). The Traffic Order may be very useful as posters here can check it for accuracy and relevance to your PCN. Sometimes Orders cite a load of rubbish or miss important stuff out - and then you're on to a winner.

You have this appeal point mentioned so far, from Ticket ripper:

QUOTE
They have stated the 14 and 28 day periods correctly but then add "(1.e date 28 days forward)" I would have thought this was quite confusing unless you are familiar with the legal distinctions using "within" and "beginning with" formula.
QUOTE

And I can't see that you have yet attached the back of the PCN anywhere so we cannot comment yet as to whether gen regs 3(2)(b) are fully covered in the PCN wording. Can you attach the pic please, it's a strong point if the PCN wording is flawed.
masterkik
Hi,

Cannot add any more documents or photos as maximum space of 1.95MB is reached, so not too sure how I can get around this issue, any ideas anyone ?.

Regards

MK
dave-o
You save it as a .jpg and host it at tinypic. Then you can post directly into this thread and don't need to attach anything.

Instructions in the FAQ.
hcandersen
Isn't this an alleged contravention at a free parking place, so no machine? Also, as both time readings were taken from the same device and the hour is relative only to that device wouldn't that negate the need for the accuracy of the HHC to be validated against any other timing device? Having said this, the PCN must state the (correct) date and time of the alleged contravention, but I'm not certain that this has much mileage in it on its own.

HCA
Ticket ripper
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 29 Jun 2010 - 15:21) *
Isn't this an alleged contravention at a free parking place, so no machine? Also, as both time readings were taken from the same device and the hour is relative only to that device wouldn't that negate the need for the accuracy of the HHC to be validated against any other timing device? Having said this, the PCN must state the (correct) date and time of the alleged contravention, but I'm not certain that this has much mileage in it on its own.

HCA


My understanding was that it is a free bay with a max 1hr stay. The observation time was from 9.53(8?) and the PCN issued at 10.58. If it is 9.53, as OP has now confirmed, then that confirms 1hr max exceeded. If it had been 9.58 then within max allowable so no contravention until 10.59. HCA is right in that timings only relevant to HHC as no P&D ticket issued.

Only way to challenge is on compliance issues on PCN so we need to see back, photos of signage and bay markings and / or TRO issues.
masterkik
Hi,

I tried attaching all the jpg photos of PCN front and back and parking bay/sign as well, but get the following error "WARNING: some file types (including Microsoft Office .doc and .xls documents) contain information that you cannot see just by reading the file. This can include personal information such as your name, and previous versions including text that you've deleted" despite seeing 2 jpg files uploaded successfully so please advise what can I do as have used the pixlr.com to shrink the size or can I email it to someone to add to this topic thanks
Regards

MK
dave-o
QUOTE (dave-o @ Tue, 29 Jun 2010 - 12:39) *
You save it as a .jpg and host it at tinypic. Then you can post directly into this thread and don't need to attach anything.

Instructions in the FAQ.


There are more pics right?
The one there of bay markings is not much use as we need the ends of the bay too.
Ticket ripper
you are trying to attach documents in the area you type out posts to the thread. do as others have said and read the FAQ sticky regarding posting pictures!
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=51865 biggrin.gif
masterkik

bama
Fails Gen Regs 3 (2)

I think... i have fecked that one up before..
Ticket ripper
agreed.

they have missed out

"(i) those representations will be considered; (ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations....."

but further up they do say ".......all cases will be considered on individual circumstances" so whilst not strictly in compliance how an adjudicator will view it is hard to say. Certainly worth using. Why councils do not make use of templates provided to them by DfT I do not know.

Anyone had a recent adjudication on gen regs 3 (2)(b) wordinng yet?

masterkik
Hi,

Good to see at least have managed to load the docs and photos correctly at last and thanks for everyones help, secondly if someone could summarise how to word the appeal would be much appreciated thanks.

Regards

MK
masterkik
Hi,

Can someone explain what the following means:

"(i) those representations will be considered; (ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations....."

but further up they do say ".......all cases will be considered on individual circumstances" so whilst not strictly in compliance how an adjudicator will view it is hard to say. Certainly worth using. Why councils do not make use of templates provided to them by DfT I do not know.

Anyone had a recent adjudication on gen regs 3 (2)(b) wording


I also tried in appeal the mentioned of 3(2) and they replied by saying "You have not explained how you feel our PCN fails to comply to with regulations", I also asked for a maintenance record for the handheld device to query the accuracy of the difference of 5mins to which they replied back "Before the beginning of each shift the CEO will callibrate the handheld computers to ensure they reflect the correct time and date. The time will be checked against a master clock, which is callibrated weekly against the British Telecom talking clock" although still does not answer my question about a maintenance record of the device and have replied in reference to synchronisation.

So options are to either pay fine or wait for Notice of Owner form to challenge them formally, so please advise thanks.

Regards

Masrterkik
hcandersen
Just a thought. The PCN states an observation period from 9.53 to 10.58 - was this continuous? I doubt it, the CEO must have moved to other activities. If you had moved the car at 10.30 and returned at 10.40 then this would still fit the timings. The difference of course is that in neither case would you have stayed for more than 1 hour, but you would have returned within the hour. But that's not the alleged contravention is it?

What evidence, that would stand rigorous scrutiny, does the council have from the CEO's notes to prove that your vehicle was waiting continuously from 9.53 to 10.58.

HCA
masterkik
Hi,

But it says no return within 1 hout so wouldnt be relevant if I moved and came back.

Regards

Khurram
masterkik
Hi,

I saw someone mention "Fails Gen Regs 3 (2) I think... i have fecked that one up before..", what point do I mention as they have asked for further clarification when mentioned this 3(2) regulation as they have already rejected my first appeal but have another appeal coming up.

Also checked the line markinsg and they have a white broken parking bay boc==x and also near the kerb they also have sold yellow lines and in some places a solid yellow in addition to the white parking bay markings at the saqme which surely cannot be right as no clear marking ?.

Hope to hear back soon, thanks.

Regards

MK
snowy1998
Just a thought, taking HCA's comments to the extreme if you were parked there until say 9:55, then left and came back 1 hour and 1 minute later and parked at 10:56? No contravention.........
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