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Lara Croft
Hello everyone I only found out about this website yesterday so I'm afraid I've already sent off my NIP signed and accepted, but I hope you'll still be able to help me?


1. Was the offence in England or Scotland - Wales
2. The name of the Constabulary - North Wales Police
3. Date of the offence - 27/10/04
4. Date of the NIP - 29/10/04
5. Date you received the NIP - Two days later
6. Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Can't remember, didn't keep the envelope
7. Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned?  If not then what is your relationship with the vehicle. - Yes, I am Reg Keeper
8. Do you hold a UK or foreign driving licence. - Full UK
9. How many current points do you have? - 0
10. Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out.  Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons.

I received a NIP accusing me of 57 in a 30 approx four days after driving in the area stated on the NIP, at the time I was unaware that this could be challenged and dutifully sent the NIP back admiting I was the driver on the 1/11/04.

I heard no more from the Police until 01/04/05 when a Summons dropped through the door.

The summons "bundle" includes itself, a page titled SECTION A, NOTICE TO DEFENDANT PROOF BY WRITTEN STATEMENT,  a STATEMENT OF WITNESS CAMERA SUPPORTED EVIDENCE (filled out and signed by a Police officer),  a Statement of Witness (signed by a civilian refering to the NIP), a Copy of my original NIP and a Court information booklet.

I will post the details of all except the "booklet" as soon as possible, but my first question is that they have not provided any photographic or Video evidence in the bundle, should they have done so?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
OU812
Well unfortunately sending back a signed NIP does make things a little more difficult, but since you've got to go to court anyway you still have some options

Your first choice would appear to be either

Plead guilty thus allowing yourself to submit a mitigation statement and getting a 'discount' on the penalty for pleading guilty right away

Alternatively plead not guilty and push for full disclosure (I'll come back to this) and examine the prosecutions case for [fatal] errors

Do you know if you were caught by a static camera or a manned mobile camera unit? If you were caughty by a mobile unit you may have the opportunity for some 'fun and games' if it turns out to be a civillian operator and/or an LTI 20/20 camera.....
Bob_Sprocket
Hi,

Is there a plea form so that you can plead guilty/not guilty by post?

If you plead not guilty they have an opportunity to make further disclosure.

If you plead guilty they will read out a short form of the evidence and find you guilty and after hearing mitigation will decide on a punishment. You can attend the farce otherwise known as a trial and make the mitigation statement in person or send in a writen one which will be read out on your behalf.

If you plead not guilty and they do not disclose a vital piece of evidence you need to be very well prepared to resist its admission and repel the application for an adjournment if, as they probably will the CPS apply for one.

Are you prepared to fight or do you want to limit the damage?

Best wishes

Bob
Lara Croft
QUOTE (OU812)
Do you know if you were caught by a static camera or a manned mobile camera unit? If you were caughty by a mobile unit you may have the opportunity for some 'fun and games' if it turns out to be a civillian operator and/or an LTI 20/20 camera.....


It says on the Police officers statement it was an LTI 20/20 Speedscope Laser and that he will present a video tape.


QUOTE (Bob_Sprocket)
Hi,

Is there a plea form so that you can plead guilty/not guilty by post?

If you plead not guilty they have an opportunity to make further disclosure.

If you plead guilty they will read out a short form of the evidence and find you guilty and after hearing mitigation will decide on a punishment. You can attend the farce otherwise known as a trial and make the mitigation statement in person or send in a writen one which will be read out on your behalf.

If you plead not guilty and they do not disclose a vital piece of evidence you need to be very well prepared to resist its admission and repel the application for an adjournment if, as they probably will the CPS apply for one.

Are you prepared to fight or do you want to limit the damage?

Best wishes

Bob


Yes there is a "PLEA AND MITIGATION FORM".

I want to fight it but at this stage am a little frightend (S**ting myself actually) by the prospect of going to court as I've never been before!

Thanks for your help
Di
cjm99
QUOTE
accusing me of 57 in a 30


They will definately consider a ban. (indeed, they will ban you on conviction). You will therefore be compelled to attend.
Scan all your documents and exhibit copies, and post them. We desparately need a significant error of process or disclosure.
Lara Croft
A Ban!  I thaught you had to be over 30 mph over the speed limit for that?

I can't scan but have typed up everything but the NIP:-

SUMMONS

My Name
My Address

You are hereby summoned to appear before the Magistrates' Court sitting

at Wrexham on the 22nd day of April 2005 at xx.xx to answer to the

INFORMATION(S) of which particulars are given below.

INFORMANT: SUPERINTENDENT
MICHELE WILLIAMS
NORTH WALES POLICE

On 27/10/04 AT xx.xx ON THE A541 WESTMINSTER BRIDGE GWERSYLLY, WREXHAM,

YOU, DROVE A MOTOR VEHICLE, NAMELY A NISSAN **** *** ON A RESTRICTED

ROAD, NAMELY THE A541 AT A SPEED EXCEEDING 30 MILES PER HOUR. CONTRARY

TO SECTIONS 81(1) OF THE ROAD TRAFFIC REGULATION ACT 1984 AND SCHEDULE

2 TO THE ROAD TRAFFIC OFFENDERS ACT 1988

************IMPORTANT************
YOU MUST PRODUCE YOUR DRIVING LICENCE AND, IF YOU HAVE ONE, YOUR

COUNTERPART TO THE LICENCE EITHER BY SENDING THEM TO THE COURT AT LEAST

THREE DAYS BEFORE THE HEARING OR BY HAVING THEM WITH YOU AT COURT.  

FAILURE TO PRODUCE YOUR LICENCE MAY RESULT IN A FINE OF UP TO £1000 AND

ITS SUSPENSION UNTIL PRODUCED
*********************************

Signed
Clerk to the Justices


Second page:-

NORTH WALES POLICE

SECTION A
NOTICE TO DEFENDANT PROOF BY WRITTEN STATEMENT
(C.J Act 1967, S9; MC Act 1980; S102; MC Rules 1981, r70)

To: Me at my Address

On 22nd day of APRIL 2005 at WREXHAM Magistrates' Court will hear

evidence against you relating to Road Traffic Offences detailed in the

attached summon(s).  These offences can be tried by Magistrates' Court

only.

Written statements have been made by the witnesses named below and

copies of their statements are enclosed.  Each of these statements will

be tendered in evidence before the Magistrates unless you want any of

these witnesses to give oral evidence.  If you want any of the

witnesses to give oral evidence you should inform me as soon as

possible.  If you do not do so within 7 days of receiving this notice

and the offence(s) is/are tried by the Magistrates' Court, you will

lose your right to prevent the statement being tendered in evidence and

you will only be able to require the attendance of the witness with the

leave of the court.  If you have not informed me that you want the

witness to attand he/she will not be present when you appear before the

Magistrates and delay and expense will be caused if he/she has then to

be called.

If you wish any of the witnesses to give oral evidence it will help

save time and expense if you would please complete the reply slip,

Section C, and return the slip to the address shown.

If you intend to consult a solicitor about your case you should do so

at once and hand this notice and the statement to him so that he/she

may deal with them.

Names of witnesses whose statements are enclosed:

Police Officer's name, Civilian's name, LJD1

Date:31/03/05  Signed: on behalf of the Prosecutor

---------------------------------------------------

SECTION B     CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE (FOR POLICE USE ONLY)

I, someones name being employed by North Wales Police certify that on

31/03/05 I served the above named with the Summonses/Notice/Section 9

Statement, of which a true copy is attached hereto, by sending the said

documents by 1st class post to him/her in a pre-paid letter on the

afternoon of the above mentioned dated and addressed to him/her at the

address shown on the relevant copy document, being his/her last known

place of abode.

Signed: same as above Dated: 31/03/05

..........................................................

SECTION C    REPLY SLIP

To: Clerk to the Justices

Court: Wrexham

From:.......

Address:......

*I DO NOT require the witness named by you to attend court.
*I require the undermentioned witnesses to attend Court and give oral

evidence.

Date:.....     Signed:.......



Third Page:-

NORTH WALES POLICE

STATEMENT OF WITNESS
CAMERA SUPPORTED EVIDENCE

STATEMENT OF PC XXXX XXXX XXXX

Age OVER 18    Occupation of witness: Police Officer

This statement consisting of one page signed by me, is true to the best

of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is

tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have

wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not

believe to be true.

Dated 22nd January 2005    Signed.....

-----------------------------------

At xx.xx hours on 27/10/2004 I was on Camera Enforcement Duty when I

saw a motor vehicle, namely NISSAN XXXXXX index number XXX XXX, being

driven on a road, namely A541 WESTMINSTER BRIDGE GWERSYLLT, WREXHAM in

the direction of Wrexham.

--------------------------------------

Part A (Excess Speed)

I am an authorised user of the Lastec Local Video System, which

incorporates the LTI 20/20 Speedscope Laser.  In my opinion the speed

of the vehicle was in excess of the 30 mph speed limit for that class

of vehicle for that road.

I checked the speed of the vehicle by means of a LTI 20/20 Speedscope

Laser, serial number xxxx, a prescribed device approved by the

Secretary of State.  To the best of my knowledge and belief the device

was operated in accordance with the approval given and was working

correctly.  The speed recorded forming part of the photographic

evidence was 57 mph.

--------------------------------------

The offence forms part of the photographic evidence.
The offending vehicle was not stopped and the driver was not spoken to.
Signs, site and equipment checks were carried out and were in order.

--------------------------------------

Video tape reference number xxxx was used and following the checks the

tape was secured and retained in the video tape library at the Safety

Camera Unit on on 27/10/2004, and I would present this video cassette

as exhibit GE1.

Signed: by him

Dated: 22nd January 2005



Third Page:-

Version 1.0 Fail to Furnish Information
NORTH WALES POLICE

Statement of Witness
(CJ Act 1967, s.9; MC Act 1980, ss.5A(3)(a) & 5B; MC Rules 1981, r.70)

STATEMENT OF XXX XXXX

Age (if over 18 enter "over 18"): Over 18

Occupation of witness: Evidence Assessor

This statement consisting of one page signed by me, is true to the best

of my knowledge and belief and I make it knowing that, if it is

tendered in evidence, I shall be liable to prosecution if I have

wilfully stated in it anything which I know to be false or do not

believe to be true.

Dated the 11th day of February 05 Signature: her signature

------------------------------------------

On 29/10/04 a notice under Section 172 Road Trafic Act 1988 was sent by

First Class Post to the Registered Keeper, namely me at my address,

regarding an offence which was committed in respect of a vehicle

registration number xxxxxx on 27/10/04 at A541 Westminster Bridge,

Gwersyllt, Wrexham.

I now produce a copy of the notice, identified Exhibit Mark LJD1.

To the best of my knowledge and belief a response was received which is

now produced.

Enquiries with the DVLA revealed that xxx was the Registered Keeper of

the vehicle, registration number xxxx.

Signed: by her Dated 11/02/05.
Bob_Sprocket
Hi,

Were all of the exhibits attached as it says on the s9 statements?

We could really do with seeing the NIP as a scan or photograph.

I see that they have not said how you can view the video tape, this may make that s9 non-compliant and therefore inadmissible.

Go and read this to give you hope.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=3132

Best wishes

Bob
Lara Croft
QUOTE (Bob_Sprocket)
Were all of the exhibits attached as it says on the s9 statements?

We could really do with seeing the NIP as a scan or photograph.


The only exhibit that is attached is the original signed NIP, I have been sent no photograps or Video.

I will try to get the NIP scanned today and post a link.

Thanks for the link I'll go and read now.

It says I have to respond within 7 days if I want the witnesses to attend, today is my last day to respond, should I ask for them to attend?
Mika
QUOTE (Lara Croft)
Thanks for the link I'll go and read now.


You may also find this case interesting and you will find additional information, on the LTi 20-20, by following this link. icon_idea.gif
Lara Croft
Thanks!

If I read the links correctly I need to send in a plea of not guilty then at the court on 22nd this month when the prosecution start to read the Police officers statement I should object stating that it does not comply with section 9 of the criminal justice act as I have not been provided with the Photographic or Video evidence mentioned in his statement?

I dont need to request the video evidence before the hearing?
OU812
QUOTE (Lara Croft)
Thanks!

If I read the links correctly I need to send in a plea of not guilty then at the court on 22nd this month when the prosecution start to read the Police officers statement I should object stating that it does not comply with section 9 of the criminal justice act as I have not been provided with the Photographic or Video evidence mentioned in his statement?

I dont need to request the video evidence before the hearing?


There is a disclosure thread under the 'read this first' / 'FAQ' forum

At the risk of complicating matters I seem to recall that the CPS like to use the lack of a [skeleton] defence document to resist further disclosure (I know this point was being debated in a thread recently but I dont have time right now to go digging for it I'm afraid) - is this something people think Lara should consider to try and 'watertight' her inadmissable arguments?
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