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roberts
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2010
Date of the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 14 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Cartgate, Somerset >> Exeter
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Travelling west on A303 dual carriageway. Saw police mobile vehicle too late and realised that I had probably been caught on camera.
Time about 17:15 hours.
Road fairly busy (Friday evening).
Visibilty good, weather fine.
I have requested and received all the police evidence but the photo does not appear to tie up with the camera location given.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:36:25 +0000
Logician
"the photo does not appear to tie up with the camera location given."

But does it tie up with where you saw the van and does it appear to show your vehicle?
roberts
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 11 May 2010 - 13:00) *
"the photo does not appear to tie up with the camera location given."

But does it tie up with where you saw the van and does it appear to show your vehicle?

I cannot remember the exact location of the van but the image is of my vehicle but the driver is not identifiable. What is concerning me is that we changed drivers at a service area close to the alleged offence and if we were caught by a different vehicle, which we did not see, then it might have been a different driver at the time of the alleged offence.
peterguk
Cartgate Garage is on a dual carriageway section of the A303, so it should be easy to determine whether the service station you swapped drivers at is before or after Cartgate.

Google Map Linky
desktop_demon
In what way does the OP feel the location shown in the picture/s is different to the described location on the NIP. How has the OP confirmed this - has the OP (for example) visited the location described on the NIP and made a pictorial comparison?

If the photographic location and surrounding areas have absolutely no resemblance to the location described in the NIP then the OP might want to ask the police to clarify the details on the NIP. The current details have obviously caused the OP some confusion and may have adversely affected the preparation of any defence. .
roberts
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 13 May 2010 - 15:45) *
Cartgate Garage is on a dual carriageway section of the A303, so it should be easy to determine whether the service station you swapped drivers at is before or after Cartgate.

Google Map Linky

The service area is off the Cargate Roundabout. The photo shows dual carriageway but it does not match any section of raod either east or west of the services.

QUOTE (desktop_demon @ Thu, 13 May 2010 - 15:50) *
In what way does the OP feel the location shown in the picture/s is different to the described location on the NIP. How has the OP confirmed this - has the OP (for example) visited the location described on the NIP and made a pictorial comparison?

If the photographic location and surrounding areas have absolutely no resemblance to the location described in the NIP then the OP might want to ask the police to clarify the details on the NIP. The current details have obviously caused the OP some confusion and may have adversely affected the preparation of any defence. .

I have visited the area in question because you will understand that nobody is willing to put their hand up to being the driver until they are certain they were driving at the time.
The photo shows road signs which, although not legible, are distinctive. I cannot locate these signs in either direction along the dualcarriage way either side of Cartgate Roundabout.
I asked for either a grid reference or post code of the Halfway House Kennels because the location they gave me was a layby 50 yards before this. I think I have found Halfway House Kennels but no layby and no piece of road which ties up with the photo.
I have noe asked them to tell me if the van was located east or west of the service area.
Where do I stand if I cannot identify the exact piece of road and cannot be sure who was driving?
peterguk
QUOTE (roberts @ Thu, 13 May 2010 - 17:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 13 May 2010 - 15:45) *
Cartgate Garage is on a dual carriageway section of the A303, so it should be easy to determine whether the service station you swapped drivers at is before or after Cartgate.

Google Map Linky

The service area is off the Cargate Roundabout. The photo shows dual carriageway but it does not match any section of raod either east or west of the services.


If Cartgate Services at the roundabout A303/A3088, that's 1.5 miles North East of Cartgate Garage.
ford poplar
Where do I stand if I cannot identify the exact piece of road and cannot be sure who was driving?

In the same position as anyone else. The official photo is only to provide ID evidence of the offending vehicle, anything else recognisable is a bonus. It is up to you to ID the driver with reasonable diligence on the s172. I assume the photo has a time/date stamp, so when you changed drivers at the service station, did you get a timed receipt for any purchase, check the time? So was the photo before or after the stop? driver identified.
In the end it may come down to balance of probabilities as there are only 2-4 possiblities of people entitled to drive & insured for that vehicle.

Failing to ID driver within 28 days will gain you 6 points + ~£500 fine
roberts
QUOTE (ford poplar @ Thu, 13 May 2010 - 17:45) *
Where do I stand if I cannot identify the exact piece of road and cannot be sure who was driving?

In the same position as anyone else. The official photo is only to provide ID evidence of the offending vehicle, anything else recognisable is a bonus. It is up to you to ID the driver with reasonable diligence on the s172. I assume the photo has a time/date stamp, so when you changed drivers at the service station, did you get a timed receipt for any purchase, check the time? So was the photo before or after the stop? driver identified.
In the end it may come down to balance of probabilities as there are only 2-4 possiblities of people entitled to drive & insured for that vehicle.

Failing to ID driver within 28 days will gain you 6 points + ~£500 fine

It looks like I will have to carry the can. Unfortunately I have not got any conclusive evidence so if I name another driver that driver will dispute it. My only hope is if the police can let me know if the van was located east or west of the service area.
roberts
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 13 May 2010 - 17:19) *
QUOTE (roberts @ Thu, 13 May 2010 - 17:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 13 May 2010 - 15:45) *
Cartgate Garage is on a dual carriageway section of the A303, so it should be easy to determine whether the service station you swapped drivers at is before or after Cartgate.

Google Map Linky

The service area is off the Cargate Roundabout. The photo shows dual carriageway but it does not match any section of raod either east or west of the services.


If Cartgate Services at the roundabout A303/A3088, that's 1.5 miles North East of Cartgate Garage.

I have travelled the full length of dualcarriageway in both directions and cannot find the stretch of road shown in the photo. This means the photo was taken a long way from Cartgate - all I need to establish is if it was taken east or west of the service area just off the Cartgate Roundabout.
The NIP gives a camera location which does not match the photo unless there is another Cartgate in Somerset.
CuriousOrange
You said you saw a van while you were driving. You said you changed drivers close to the location given on the NIP. Clearly if the van you saw wasn't near the location given you'd remember that you were driving for quite a while before/after seeing the van having changed drivers. So either there were two camera vans on the same road monitoring the traffic in the same direction within a couple of miles of each other, or the van you saw while driving is the one that resulted in the NIP.
roberts
QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Fri, 14 May 2010 - 09:37) *
You said you saw a van while you were driving. You said you changed drivers close to the location given on the NIP. Clearly if the van you saw wasn't near the location given you'd remember that you were driving for quite a while before/after seeing the van having changed drivers. So either there were two camera vans on the same road monitoring the traffic in the same direction within a couple of miles of each other, or the van you saw while driving is the one that resulted in the NIP.

I was driving when I saw the camera van and I thought I was probably caught speeding. I was a bit shaken and so we changed drivers immediately after this. When the NIP arrived it gave a location which did not tie up with my memory so I asked for clarification and photographic evidence. It has been like extracting teeth but I have now received a grid reference of where the van was located and it is where I saw it. However the photo does not tie up with this stretch of road. So my concern is still that we were caught by a different camera on a different stretch of road. I am sorry if I sound confused but this is a new experience for me. The situation is that I was driving and almost certainly speeding when I saw the van. I have been sent a NIP which I can now confirm is for an offence at that camera site. But I have a photo of my car on a different stretch of road. So I will send off the £60 and take the 3 points and think myself lucky we did not receive two NIPs for the same journey - is it possible that my car was caught twice and they have sent one NIP with the other photo? dry.gif
Logician
You said that it was a different stretch of road based on some illegible signs visible on the photo that you could not identify later on the road itself when you went back, but does the road appear similar apart from those signs? It just be that the signs were moved, they may have been temporary anyway.
roberts
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 11:39) *
You said that it was a different stretch of road based on some illegible signs visible on the photo that you could not identify later on the road itself when you went back, but does the road appear similar apart from those signs? It just be that the signs were moved, they may have been temporary anyway.

The signs were illegible but distinctive. One was a permanent large white sign showing very distinctive junction layout details but the place names are not legible. In front of this sign is a permanent green or blue Services sign but again the writing is illegible - I think the three icons are for WC, Tourist Information and maybe food. These signs are for the benefit of East bound traffic whereas I was driving West. The photo also shows a bridge pillar in the centre reservation. Neither the signs or bridge pillar match what can be seen from the alleged camera position nor can I find a match on this complete stretch of dualcarriageway.
So there is no doubt that my car was caught exceeding the speed limit but I still do not know where and therefore I do not who was driving.
Durzel
A&S Safety Camera site lists A303 Cartgate Roundabout as a mobile camera site.

Google Maps shows this sign near the camera site.

If it is your car why does it matter whether or not the photo came from the van you saw? I think you'll be in for a very tough sell claiming that the mere sight of a camera van was enough to cause you to be "shaken" and prompt a change of driver.
roberts
QUOTE (Durzel @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 15:43) *
A&S Safety Camera site lists A303 Cartgate Roundabout as a mobile camera site.

Google Maps shows this sign near the camera site.

If it is your car why does it matter whether or not the photo came from the van you saw? I think you'll be in for a very tough sell claiming that the mere sight of a camera van was enough to cause you to be "shaken" and prompt a change of driver.

It only matters in as much as I may not have been the driver for the alleged offence. But as I said earlier I'll pay up as I may be lucky to have only received one ticket!

QUOTE (Durzel @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 15:43) *
A&S Safety Camera site lists A303 Cartgate Roundabout as a mobile camera site.

Google Maps shows this sign near the camera site.

If it is your car why does it matter whether or not the photo came from the van you saw? I think you'll be in for a very tough sell claiming that the mere sight of a camera van was enough to cause you to be "shaken" and prompt a change of driver.

Sorry, I should have thanked you for the Google image. The sign is not the one in the photo sent to me, but the location is the one I was given.
captain swoop
posting the photo would help
CuriousOrange
 
QUOTE (roberts @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 13:48) *
I still do not know where and therefore I do not who was driving.
You're heading for six points at this rate.
Logician
QUOTE (roberts @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 15:58) *
The sign is not the one in the photo sent to me, but the location is the one I was given.

I notice on Google that just to the SW of the roundabout there is one of those signs with doors that can be closed over it to hide the sign, or opened out to reveal it. Perhaps that might explain why the scene appears different?
roberts
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 18:37) *
QUOTE (roberts @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 15:58) *
The sign is not the one in the photo sent to me, but the location is the one I was given.

I notice on Google that just to the SW of the roundabout there is one of those signs with doors that can be closed over it to hide the sign, or opened out to reveal it. Perhaps that might explain why the scene appears different?

This would give me real problems because I have been told the camera was NE of the roundabout. We changed drivers at the service area at the roundabout so if the image is SW of the roundabout it is not me driving. This is illustrates my problem - where was the camera and who was driving? I am going to try to scan and post the image so that somebody may be able to identify the exact stretch of road. Later this week I hope to drive one more time along the whole the whole of the Somerset and Wiltshire length of the A303 to see if I can find it for myself.
roberts
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 17:33) *
posting the photo would help

Do you know how I can post the photo? I have scanned it but don't know how to attach it.
roberts
QUOTE (roberts @ Tue, 18 May 2010 - 10:05) *
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Mon, 17 May 2010 - 17:33) *
posting the photo would help

Do you know how I can post the photo? I have scanned it but don't know how to attach it.




This is a link to the image. Can anyone tell me where this bit of road is?

QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 18 May 2010 - 10:08) *

Thank you - this was very helpful.
Durzel
This is all I've managed to dig up so far... it's turning into a bit of an obsession for me to find this place!

Here is that services sign, a bit further up is that road sign.

That's on the A303 but it's not the Cartgate roundabout...
captain swoop
Just under a mile. close enough.
CuriousOrange
This zoomed view gives more of an indication as to how those signs came to look the way they do in the photo. (The camera van was probably positioned a little further on, but Street Maps lacks the zoom detail from the place the van most likely was.)

Slightly ironically, it looks like it was positioned not far past that speed camera sign facing the westbound traffic.

roberts
QUOTE (Durzel @ Tue, 18 May 2010 - 13:20) *
This is all I've managed to dig up so far... it's turning into a bit of an obsession for me to find this place!

Here is that services sign, a bit further up is that road sign.

That's on the A303 but it's not the Cartgate roundabout...

Thank you so much - you have identified the exact spot and, unfortunately, I can confirm that I was driving because it is before the Cartgate Roundabout Services. What fooled me was the foreshortening in the image - it looks to me like the car, bridge pillar and road signs are all within 50 metres of each other whereas in fact there is about 500 metres between them all. The police camera was exactly where they said it was and where I saw it, although I probably saw it long after it had caught me. There is a lesson for all us speeders here - the camera can catch us before the van is hardly in view, especially if there are other vehicles shielding your view!
Thank you for all who posted helpful comments - I am only sorry it helped convict me. It's a fair cop, but at least I now know it is.

QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Tue, 18 May 2010 - 14:02) *
This zoomed view gives more of an indication as to how those signs came to look the way they do in the photo. (The camera van was probably positioned a little further on, but Street Maps lacks the zoom detail from the place the van most likely was.)

Slightly ironically, it looks like it was positioned not far past that speed camera sign facing the westbound traffic.

Almost spot on thanks - see my above reply to an earlier posting.
Durzel
It's somewhat academic now but for future reference it's probably a good idea to scrub all identifying marks from photographs posted - the one you provided has your exact speed, exact time & date, etc. The 8 digit number at the top may even be a serial number of some kind.

QUOTE (roberts @ Tue, 18 May 2010 - 14:12) *
Thank you so much - you have identified the exact spot and, unfortunately, I can confirm that I was driving because it is before the Cartgate Roundabout Services. What fooled me was the foreshortening in the image - it looks to me like the car, bridge pillar and road signs are all within 50 metres of each other whereas in fact there is about 500 metres between them all.

Yeah it took me quite a while to find the spot because as you say from the looks of the photograph the services sign and the road sign are right next to eachother whereas as CuriousOrange demonstrated the foreshortening is quite significant and in reality those signs are some distance from eachother.
roberts
QUOTE (Durzel @ Tue, 18 May 2010 - 14:16) *
It's somewhat academic now but for future reference it's probably a good idea to scrub all identifying marks from photographs posted - the one you provided has your exact speed, exact time & date, etc. The 8 digit number at the top may even be a serial number of some kind.

Just shows how innocent and naive I am about these things. I thought it was enough to remove my car reg. I had nothing to hide regarding the exact time, date and location and in fact this was what I was trying to establish beyond any doubt.
You are correct that the 8 digit number is probably a reference number as explained elsewhere in this website. rolleyes.gif
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