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mb1
I received a PCN through the post from Wandsworth Borough Council for stopping on a single yellow line, albeit on the edge of a bus stop. The reason I had to stop where I did was that I was about to be sick (will this be enough to appeal?).

I only saw a yellow line and there were no signs visible alongside where I stopped.

The "offense" occurred on 13th March 2010 (Saturday) on St.John's Hill SW11 (see photo of the spot I stopped in)

Offense is said to be contravention code 47 (see attached scans of the PCN).

I really was only stopped for a short while and didn't see any reason why stopping where I did would cause an issue, equally I really didn't have a huge amount of time to debate it as I had to get out the car as I thought I was going to be sick (I'm sure this will be on their video too)....

Any help would be much appreciated........many thanks







dave-o
How "on the edge of" the bus stop were you?
southpaw82
Is there a yellow plate on that bus stop?
mb1
I would say that the car was half in half out of the bus stop and the front of the car would have been where the front of that circle is on the picture.......

What do you mean by a yellow plate on the bus stop?


Thanks for your help.........
dave-o
I think SP means there should be a clearway sign, and one is not obvious in that picture.

Perhaps you can give us the Google Street View link so we can take a look.
mb1
Here is google link

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=28+st.john...ved=0CAcQ8gEwAA

I can't see any signs nearby at all.........
Broady
Looking at the link it seems the road was photographed by google on 2 separate days.

If you look at the upright post that has the london transport sign on it, there is a 974/975 plate on the post in photos that were obviously taken on a sunny day, in the photos taken on the overcast day the plate is missing. I wouldn't have a clue which are the more recent.

One of the exemptions for stopping in a bus stop clearway in TSRGD 2002, part 1 schedule 19 is

4© a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver's control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property

might be worth a try, especially if there is CCTV footage of you creating a pavement pizza

I think i'm right in saying this is a section 10 notice served under the civil enforcement regs? If that's correct the 'within' wording on page 1 of the PCN seems iffy and they haven't made it clear that you can send reps at any point up until you receive the NTO, mistating your legal position and prejudicing your right to appeal
minnietheminx
My, my. Wandsworth have been busy.

I got the same notice for stopping at Clapham Junction station to collect someone. I was there for mere seconds, not that that counts for much I suppose.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source...1,196.62,,0,6.7

I stopped partly inside the bus stop marking, between those two bins I guess.

I don't have the reasonable excuse of nausea. I stopped behind the bus as I thought I'd obstruct the bus if I carried on.

I'm poised to pay, unless there's anything I can fight back with?

Thanks

Sorry if this is hijacking the original post, it's just that the contravention code is the same. (I'm a newbie here and not quite up on forum etiquette.)
dave-o
Always best to start your own thread if you want advice.
minnietheminx
Okay Dave-o. Sorry. Point taken.

I'll take myself off to another thread.
mb1
Thanks for the advice Dave-O / Broady....

Just to clarify is a Clearway sign the same as a 974/975 plate?

I think I will revisit the area (on foot this time) and try and see if there is sufficient signage as well just to make sure I am successful on first appeal.

Is the clearway sign the only one they need to show, and if so how regular do the signs have to be?
(Happy to research this myself if someone can tell me where to start)

Thanks in advance


Minnietheminx - I guess you can use the try the "mistating of your legal position" arguement......good luck
southpaw82
QUOTE (mb1 @ Fri, 2 Apr 2010 - 11:05) *
Just to clarify is a Clearway sign the same as a 974/975 plate?


This is the plate you're looking for:



QUOTE
I think I will revisit the area (on foot this time) and try and see if there is sufficient signage as well just to make sure I am successful on first appeal.


Don't expect to be successful on your first appeal - councils routinely dismiss appeals and force you to adjudication then pull out.
mb1
Does anybody know how regular the signs have to be along the area?

Thanks for your help on the sign Southpaw
bama
http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/bus.htm
mb1
If my first appeal gets refused am I allowed to request some stills of the video evidence?

The ticket says for stopping in a bus stop.

I am so sure I was not in the bus stop but before it.

Is this area known as the clearway and if so, surely this is different from the bus stop.

Many thanks for all the help.
dave-o
You have every right to ask for pictures.

Add something like this to your appeal:

QUOTE
This letter also serves as a formal request for the following evidence:
-The photographs of my vehicle that you believe prove that it was parked in contravention
mb1
I have just re-read the PCN and it appears that I only get one shot at an appeal before it would go to an independent adjudicator. Is this correct?
southpaw82
QUOTE (mb1 @ Wed, 14 Apr 2010 - 15:22) *
I have just re-read the PCN and it appears that I only get one shot at an appeal before it would go to an independent adjudicator. Is this correct?


Yes.
mb1
I am due to appeal this today.

I thought I would attach what I am proposing to write and hope that somebody may be able to add something and make the appeal more concrete. As I only have one shot I want to make sure I get it right.

ANY HELP MUCH APPRECIATED......



To whom it may concern,

Thank you for your letter dated 26th March 2010.

I have read your letter and after careful consideration I would like to make an appeal on the above PCN, which occurred on the 13th March 2010.

My reason for stopping, as I am surer your video evidence will show, was that I was overcome with the need to be sick (you should see me going down Severus Road and having the startings of being sick and be there for a couple of minutes before the feeling subsided and I returned to my vehicle). Hopefully this is reason enough to cancel the PCN.

Just in case I need to add a legal justification that the need to be sick is reason enough to stop I have done some research. I believe that a valid reason for stopping in a clearway in TSRGD 2002, part 1 schedule 19 is “a vehicle which is prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver's control or which has to be stopped in order to avoid injury or damage to persons or property”. Being sick is certainly a circumstance beyond my control. Furthermore, I believe that if I had not stopped where I did, my being sick would have caused a lapse in concentration and not only damage to my property but also severely risked damage to oncoming cars and potentially pedestrians as well, not to mention the passengers within my vehicle.

Please see a written statement from one of my passengers at the time confirming that I had stopped as I was about to be sick and had been complaining for some time that I was feeling very ill (Appendix A). I have spoken to both passengers that were in the vehicle at the time and also two passengers that got in my vehicle while I was away being sick and they are all willing to testify to the fact that I really hadn’t intended to stop where I did.

As this is my one and only chance to appeal I’d also like to raise concern that there was not sufficient signage to tell me that I would not be able to stop where I stopped. Furthermore, I would question if indeed I was in the bus stop, as I remember attempting not to stop in the bus stop in the short space of time I had. I would therefore, like you to treat this letter as a request to see image stills showing my car stopped in the bus stop.

Furthermore, as this is a section 10 notice served under the civil enforcement regulations I believe you have misstated my right to send representations at any point up until I receive the NTO from yourselves, and is therefore mistaking my legal position and prejudicing my right to appeal.

I accept that you have a job to do but in this instance I really had no choice but to stop. I have never offended in your Borough before, nor have I ever had to stop to be sick before, but I can assure you should either or both happen again, I will make sure, if at all possible, that I avoid stopping in a clearway.

I thank you for considering my appeal and look forward to hearing from you.
mb1
I definitely feel a need to add a little bit more on the lack of signage saying no stopping in the bus stop......
dave-o
Didn't you want to ask for photos too?
mb1
I've put that in the letter but don't have them already......I was a bit stuck as I only realized late on that it was one appeal only - completely my fault for just presuming it was like any other PCN.
dave-o
Oh yes, i see it now. It gets a bit lost IMO. I would put it in its own paragraph, and state that it is a formal request.

I also wouldn't bother putting anything about "learning your lesson", but it's your call.
mb1
I just got the following response after submitting my appeal:

DEBT RECOVERY


Thank you for your email, which has been forwarded onto our debt recovery team for consideration and reply. A reply will be sent within 28 days and your case has been placed on hold in the interim.

Thanking You,



Are they allowed to call it Debt Recovery? Also what on earth does "thanking you" mean?
dave-o
"debt recovery"?

Are you sure you emailed it to the correct address?
mb1
Definitely the correct address.

The only thing I can guess is that they are saying I have taken longer than the 28 days I was allowed - I took 29....my mistake....will this prove to be a big mistake?
mb1
Ok I have been sent a charge certificate now with fine increase......advice would be great please

dave-o
Well technically if you appealed out of time them there is nothing you can do.

I'm not really sure what to suggest.
mb1
They did say that they would consider my appeal but I am assuming they will say no.

I am happy to take this the whole way......I really did need to be sick and had to stop my car and did so as soon as was safe....it just happened that this should be right on the edge of the most over-sized bus stop you have ever seen
dave-o
That's the debt recovery team though.

If i were you i would phone up the appeals office. Do not lead them to believe that you know you are out of time. Ask them why you have recieved a CC when you have made a formal appeal. Get them to confirm that the appeal is being considered and that the CC is erroneous. Get this in writing. Take names and titles of everyone you speak to.
mb1
Is there anything I can use regarding the timings being ambiguious like I was waiting for the NTO or the wording not being right in their initial letter?

So just to clarify I need to ring up and say I really didnt know I was late and just appeal for them to consider my appeal.......

If they say no is there any option to appeal further down the line or would it wait until court?
dave-o
Currently, don't say anything about it being out of time. Phone up under the impression that everything is fine, and you are wondering why you received a CC. If they confirm that you are out of time and they are not going to hear your appeal, then we can rethink.
mb1
Ok thanks I will try and ring today (the sooner the better really) and will get a response and do as you advised, taking names of people I am speaking to and try and get a confirmation that they will consider my appeal.
clark_kent
The CC was sent by my calculations 24 days after service which is at least 4 days too early.
mb1
Original Notice was sent 26th March.

28 days from then is 23rd April no?

Is not how the calculation works?

I guess the only argument being that there is no way they could date a letter on the 23rd as surely I had until midnight on the 23rd so the letter should be dated the next day....
clark_kent
QUOTE (mb1 @ Thu, 29 Apr 2010 - 12:06) *
Original Notice was sent 26th March.

28 days from then is 23rd April no?

Is not how the calculation works?

I guess the only argument being that there is no way they could date a letter on the 23rd as surely I had until midnight on the 23rd so the letter should be dated the next day....



The PCN clearly states it is from date of service NOT when it was posted.
mb1
Sorry I am not following you. By my interpretation date of service is the date they sent it. Are you saying it is actually 13th March?
clark_kent
QUOTE (mb1 @ Thu, 29 Apr 2010 - 12:23) *
Sorry I am not following you. By my interpretation date of service is the date they sent it. Are you saying it is actually 13th March?



No I'm saying its the 30th of March.
mb1
Ok - how did you get 30th March?

They sent it 26th March.....what is the 30th March

What does the date of service mean?
Broady
mb1

what clark is getting at is that your 28 day period runs from date of service not date of the notice.

date of reg 10 notice - 26th March (friday)

date of service is assumed to be the second working day after the date of the notice (which must be the date of posting and the notice must be sent by 1st class post)

that makes date of service the following tuesday - 30th March

the 28 day period for representations ends on 26th April. The earliest they should have issued a charge certificate is the 27th April
clark_kent
QUOTE (mb1 @ Thu, 29 Apr 2010 - 13:26) *
Ok - how did you get 30th March?

They sent it 26th March.....what is the 30th March

What does the date of service mean?



<H3 id=pt1-l1g3 class=LegP1GroupTitle>Service by post</H3>3.—(1) Subject to paragraph (5), any notice (except a penalty charge notice served under regulation 9) or charge certificate under these Regulations —

(a) may be served by first class (but not second class) post; and

(b) where the person on whom it is to be served is a body corporate, is duly served if it is sent by first class post to the secretary or clerk of that body.

(2) Service of a notice or charge certificate contained in a letter sent by first class post which has been properly addressed, pre-paid and posted shall, unless the contrary is proved, be taken to have been effected on the second working day after the day of posting.

mb1
Excellent !! Thank you so much. I wasn't aware about the two working days.

So if they posted 26th and then you add two working days it takes you to the 30th because the 27th and 28th March were weekends.....

Either way they shouldn't have posted it on the 23rd as even given my initial calculations and their calculations the period ends on the 23rd so they couldn't send it until the 24th.

So Dave-O was proposing I ring and claim I didn't know I only had 28 days. Now you have given me this so I should just say they have to consider my appeal.

Or is their mistake enough to get me off the whole thing irrespective of me being ill or not?
eddy556
Its got nothing to do with weekends. They just didnt take into account that the day posted is not the day is was served (2 days later)
dave-o
QUOTE (mb1 @ Thu, 29 Apr 2010 - 13:42) *
So Dave-O was proposing I ring and claim I didn't know I only had 28 days.



No i was not! Exactly what you should not do!
I have said twice now just to phone up and ask why the hell they have issued a CC when you submitted an appeal. We just want to know whether they just have messed up or if they believe you have appealed out of time.

Either way you've got them, so this is a fact-finding mission to base our next strategy on.
Broady
QUOTE (mb1 @ Thu, 29 Apr 2010 - 13:42) *
Excellent !! Thank you so much. I wasn't aware about the two working days.

So if they posted 26th and then you add two working days it takes you to the 30th because the 27th and 28th March were weekends.....

Correct

IIRC if this was a bus lane offence the rules are different and the 28 (or is it 21?) days runs from date of notice for the london authorities, maybe they've confused themselves laugh.gif

QUOTE ('mb1')
So Dave-O was proposing I ring and claim I didn't know I only had 28 days. Now you have given me this so I should just say they have to consider my appeal.

Or is their mistake enough to get me off the whole thing irrespective of me being ill or not?


If it was me i'd do nothing for now and see what drops through the door next. You have submitted your representations within the time period so they have to consider them.

If they try and enforce the charge certificate through TEC, TEC may pick up on the incorrect date and refuse the order for recovery. If they don't you'll get an OFR. You would then fill in the form that comes with it (TE9 i think) and send it back to TEC stating that you have made representations but not received a notice of rejection. The charge cert gets cancelled and the council then have to re issue the original notice, which you then appeal (as you have already done) but now you can also include the point about them sending the charge cert too early wink.gif
mb1
Sorry Dave-O what I wrote wasn't clear enough. I meant as you originally said, phone and ask why I had CC when I had submitted an appeal and claim that I thought I wasnt out of time. Of course now things have changed slightly and it appears I wasn't out of time.

Ok so I am happy to do nothing and see what the outcome is. Either way I hope my case is strengthening with every mistake they make.

So now just wait and see if they repond to me appeal or choose to continue down the CC path.

Just for clarity what are:
TEC
OFR
TE9

Huge apologies for my ignorence on all this. I am trying to get up to speed as fast as possible but you guys are a long way ahead!!
southpaw82
Traffic Enforcement Centre.

Order for Recovery.

Witness statement form.
mb1
Thanks for that - will keep you updated with the next communication I receive from them....
nottoobad
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the rule about 'only using CCTV enforcement where the use of CEOs is impracticle' cover this one?
mb1
Would be interested to know the answer to this one.....would definitely help....

Also I was wondering. If I was not fully in the bus stop. i.e. the front wheels are just inside, does that still count as stopping in the bus stop.

I guess my thinking is a bit like if the ball is fully over the line in football, does the same apply for a car in a bus stop?
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