Hi - OK, I'm exaggerating. But I've got a bus stop a couple of doors down from my house that has never had any road markings. However I've just noticed some marks have been sprayed on the curb indicating that they're going to paint a bus stop box. It looks like it's going to take up at least 6 car lengths. This seems huge, given they're only small buses, once an hour and, in the 6 years I've lived here, I've only seen one person waiting!

Because the markings will go past drives we will only lose 2 parking spaces my side of the road and 3 on the other. But that's enough - it was only last summer that the Council (Southend BC) were consulting on introducing a CPZ because of the strain on parking, being near a station (it didn't happen). The thing I'm personally worried about (although I fully understand that no one else will be) is that it will go over my driveway, meaning that I can no longer use that as an extra parking space when I have visitors (Southend are only enforcing dropped kerbs at the request of the affected resident). Presumably I'm also going to have problems with lorries looking to deliver or removal vans not being able to stop there?

I'm going to phone the Council tomorrow, but are there any questions I should be asking, or any rules they should be following - size of bus stop, consultation etc.?

Grateful for any thoughts.

irs101

If the bus drivers are anything like the ones in my area, they won't even bother to pull into them either, preferring to sit in the middle of the road, blocking traffic in both directions. Very annoying.

The DDA requires Councils to make sure disabled persons have access to transport so arguing that a bus should double park away from the kerb at a stop is going to get no where. The recommemded size for a bus stop is 33m with 23m being a minimum length.

It's also very annoying for bus drivers when cars park in bus stops causing buses to have to stop in the middle of the road! A lot of car drivers seem to be dyslexic and think the words BUS STOP mean CAR PARK.

The Disability Discrimination Act means all councils have to make bus stops wheelchair accessible by 2015 IIRC, so they'll be raining the kerbs there too. 33m seems about right to allow room for a bus to pull in, get near the kerb, and pull out again. You might only have one bus an hour, but in future the service "could" be improved!

Oh dear, van driver will have to walk an extra 16.5m each way to deliver a parcel. If your car was there, he'd have to do that anyway. What's the problem? You're lucky Southend doesn't have bendy buses yet, they're 18m long!

Not the scenario I'm describing... the bus stops are always clear, no cars parked in them. The street has parking either side, so there is only room for vehicle to go in one direction at a time. The buses however rather than pull into the bus stop so that vehicles behind can get past, or traffic waiting to go in the opposite direction can get by, the buses will tend to just sit in the middle of the road. I don't recall seeing anything parked in the bus stops, as the CEOs in LBRuT are a verging on overzealous.

Clark - thanks. That's useful - what it looks like they're proposing could well be within those criteria. So perhaps the Council has no choice.

Roy - I wasn't looking to wind you up and I totally agree that buses stopping out in the middle of the road is no good for anyone. Our location is complicated parking/delivery wise already. The point I was making is that the run of three driveways that the bus stop is going to cross is literally the only spot within probably 500m that a large vehicle can pull in. All parking spaces are full every week day. Good point about raising the kerb though - it's going to be impossible in that location - they will only be able to raise 2 metres maximum and still have space to swing back out the space, so the bus drivers are going to have to be very precise.

Thanks for the responses. I'll give the council a call and see what other solutions they've considered.

irs101

DfT circular 2/2003 gave guidance on the introduction of bus stop clearways. Read paragraphs 24 to 32

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tslegi...rafficsigns.pdf

Paragraph 29 says

Broady - that's very helpful. On my side of the road the first bus isn't until after 9am and last one at 6pm. No service on Sundays. So that's something helpful I can suggest to the council when they call me back (of course I'm assuming the worst that they're planning 24hr operation - but quite possibly I'm wrong).

A lot of councils prefer 24/7 operation as it is consistent and reinforces the markings. Giving times allegedly reduces the effectiveness of the bus stop as drivers do not respect it as if they can park in it at 10pm they'll not think much of doing it at 10am, or that's the theory. As others say 23-25m min, but with parking nearby expect longer!

IRS101, no wind up taken, just a general gripe! I can fully see your point and concerns, but it does seem to be the norm all over the country to mark and enforce bus stopping arrangements and unify them.

Probably all the bus routes in your area are commercially run, with a few subsidised by the county council, so I wouldn't bank on 24hr operation, even though the stops are marked as such. Remember too bus stops can be used by ANY vehicle with over 8 seats, so that could be the local disabled/old folks minibus, a works or school contract etc.

There's a bus stop in my area, complete with no waiting etc, and there's never been a bus service on that road! Providing for the future maybe?

I think you are getting confused with bus lanes, bus stop clearways are for scheduled local services only.

I have a simmilar situation where I live. Only 1 service uses the stop and that runs 6am - 6pm, Mon - Sat. Parking is quite limited as there are many shops, licensed premises and residential properties in the area. My experience is that people tend to use their discretion and keep the bus stop clear during the day but park in it of an evening. We have occasionally had issues with Police and PCSO's who are new to the area handing out tickets in the evenings, fortunately in my case the local transport company have neglected to put a 974/975 sign up and i've made sure all my neighbours are aware of what implication that has on the bus stop's enforcability



I can imagine councils would prefer that, in certain areas I bet it's a nice little earner for them. Personally, I don't see how a bus stop is any different from other waiting/loading restrictions, the time plate tells you when you can and can't park there and some of those are very complex, if you can understand them then a 974/975 plate is a doddle.
If a council made that sort of arguement then as I see it they would be going against the guidance from DfT. Paragraph 28 of that circular made it clear that not all bus stops were intended to be 24hr, it's the reason there are permitted variants of 974/975 that allow reference to specific times. Why bother allowing that if the intention was to operate them 24/7?

I know bus stops don't need the backing of a TRO but do the council (where it is the highway authority) still have a general duty under sec 122 of RTRA 1984 to provide adequate parking on and off street? Could the decision to apply a bus stop restriction 24/7 when buses don't operate 24/7, to the detriment of other road users be considered malfeasance?

I spoke to the officer responsible - seemed very sensible. It's going to be 25m long - so not unreasonable. He fully understood what I was saying, but hands tied by DDA. He agreed that it's a little used stop, but apparently the council have a policy for every home to be within 450m of a bus stop. It's going to be a 7am-7pm restriction, so that helps.

He mentioned, to prove to me that he does care about parking spaces, that he had been responsible for moving the bus stops further down the road nearer a junction so that he could put in more parking places - which is true, judging by the old markings.

He said that there wouldn't be any loading 'blips' on the kerb, so lorries would still be able to stop there to deliver. Is that right? I assumed that 'clearway' meant no stopping - and don't 974/975 say 'no stopping' on them? Or is there some other type of bus stop markings they might be using?

He is wrong - bus stop clearway restrictions mean "no stopping except buses on scheduled services" no exceptions. No stopping means no loading as well. If the LA wanted to vary the restriction to allow loading they would need to obtain special authorisation from the DfT. IMHO it is highly unlikely that they would go to the bother of doings so, even if they did I cannot see the DfT agreeing to such an odd arrangement in a residential area.

Could we clarify whether bus stops are for "local bus services", i.e. those registered with the Traffic Commisssioner and elegible for Bus Service Operators Grant; "scheduled services", which could be express coaches, regular holiday journeys, works and school buses, or vehicle with over 8 passenger seats. Just being a bit pedantic, but these are all different under different regs!