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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
oldstreetticket
Hi all,

I'm sure i'm one of many who have parked on a single yellow just of Old Street and was subsequently toed. I was visiting a friend for dinner at around 8pm and parked off the main street. When I came back at 11pm I was shocked to find my car was no longer there after walking around I was told by a local that I had probably been toed. Following a lovely car journey to Hackney I had to pay £260 for my car and £60 parking ticket. As a student this is absolutely extortionate and is an absolute fortune for someone like myself who has to live off a very tight budget.

I was just wondering if anyone could help me please?! If I'm successful I will offer you a bottle to thank you for your time and effort!

The documents that I have are: A blank green parking ticket, Receipt for £260 from the car pound, Long rectangular penalty charge notice and a few sheets of A4 paper titled 'representation against a removed vehicle' which I was made to sign.

I would appreciate any help or suggestions to try and get my money back.

Many thanks!!!
oldstreetticket
If anyone would like any pictures of where I was parked I would be happy to send them to you.
eddy556
yes please post everthing you.ve got
muckychimney
as stated everything needs to be posted on here, both sides of ticket, all paperwork from towing and I mean all paperwork, and any photos you have of where you were towed from incuding bay markings and any parking time plates, please be sure though to obscure all personal details and any reference numbers.
buttonpusher
Don't forget to remove identifying marks and writing but leave dates/times.
oldstreetticket
Hey does anyone know how to attach a document to this post. I've been out of the country as a family member passed away suddenly a couple of weeks ago.

Many thanks
Tancred
The following FAQ is a guide to uploading files for viewing on the forum:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...ticle&id=16

oldstreetticket
<a target='_blank' href='http://img94.imageshack.us/i/chrisparking.png/'><img src='http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/731/chrisparking.th.png' border='0'/></a>
oldstreetticket


snowy1998
You could do with scanning BOTH sides of the PCN
southpaw82
And putting it the right way up. After all, you're the one wanting help.
oldstreetticket




J_Edgar
Front of the reps form uses "within 28 days.."

Post up the rest.
oldstreetticket










Equalizer
Can't see the paperwork for the charge for the tow. Can you post it?

Was it £200 tow + another £60 for the PCN?
oldstreetticket
This is all the paper work that I have except for the 6 pages from the 'Representation against a removed vehicle' 9which was posted at 22.49pm).

I paid a lump sum of 260 pounds at the car pound.

THANKS for your help so far guys!
Equalizer
You should have had a receipt from the towing company for the £200. Ask them for a copy.

The fact that you have been forced to pay the PCN as well, IMHO, fetters your right to make an appeal. In fact a procedural impropriety - or it would be if you were to be allowed to appeal.

Under the How To Pay section it specifically tells you NOT to pay the PCN if you want to appeal. But you have been forced to pay the PCN as a pre-condition of getting your car returned.

This means that the Council will now NOT send you a Notice To Owner (NTO), which you then can't formally appeal against - and which they then can't reject your appeal - and you can't then take it to the Parking Adjudicator (if you see what I mean!!). They have effectively blocked your right to an appeal!! ohmy.gif

In fact I think this coercement to pay should even void the PCN (and therefore the towing fee!!)

In any representations you now make to the Council you should include this argument and ask them to re-open the case (and at least give you your PCN money back while the case proceeds - they won't of course - but at least make them say as much!).

If you do want to appeal and they have refused to send you an NTO - then what??? Not sure myself as I don't think this scenario has been followed through before. The Local Government Ombudsman may be one avenue. Another may be an application to a Court to force the Council to continue the procedures - but the court may feel it is not able make such an order because of legal time limits on NTOs. Which is another reason why I feel the whole ticket should be cancelled - possible the courts might feel they could do this if the Council won't?

Any opinions anybody?
peodude
QUOTE (Equalizer @ Sun, 7 Mar 2010 - 23:44) *
Any opinions anybody?


Yes.

That you are completely wrong. PCN's are usually paid on collection of a towed vehicle. The appeal form he has explains how he can appeal, upon which a win would give him back both the PCN and the tow fee. It's normal practice.
J_Edgar
QUOTE (peodude @ Mon, 8 Mar 2010 - 00:22) *
QUOTE (Equalizer @ Sun, 7 Mar 2010 - 23:44) *
Any opinions anybody?


Yes.

That you are completely wrong. PCN's are usually paid on collection of a towed vehicle. The appeal form he has explains how he can appeal, upon which a win would give him back both the PCN and the tow fee. It's normal practice.


The PCN states you have 28 days to pay.

Normal practice it may be, but the question is more, is it lawful?
Equalizer
QUOTE (peodude @ Mon, 8 Mar 2010 - 00:22) *
QUOTE (Equalizer @ Sun, 7 Mar 2010 - 23:44) *
Any opinions anybody?


Yes.

That you are completely wrong. PCN's are usually paid on collection of a towed vehicle. The appeal form he has explains how he can appeal, upon which a win would give him back both the PCN and the tow fee. It's normal practice.



Interesting opinion. How you are so sure peodude? Do you have case law?
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (peodude @ Mon, 8 Mar 2010 - 00:22) *
QUOTE (Equalizer @ Sun, 7 Mar 2010 - 23:44) *
Any opinions anybody?


Yes.

That you are completely wrong. PCN's are usually paid on collection of a towed vehicle. The appeal form he has explains how he can appeal, upon which a win would give him back both the PCN and the tow fee. It's normal practice.





I am no expert but I agree with the others here.

A PCN clearly has a statutory time to appeal it, and in this sort of tow situation Councils ride roughshod over that and make the motorist pay the PCN immediately. Unless there is specific legislation or regulations which allow this, I can't see how it can be lawful. Even if it has been the normal practice by Councils for years, it doesn't make it OK.
dave-o
Right then!

I think there is room for stating that the appeal period is misleading on the page of the appeal info that you have shown.

However, there are more pages of this - right? Show them.

Also, check that there are adequate CPZ entry signs at all possible entries to the CPZ.
bama
my 2p

the PCN clearly says do not pay if you wish to challenge.
forcing payment removes your right of challenge - clearly wrong.
and holds the vehicle hostage.
clearly you should be able to withhold the PCN payment when paying the release fee.
of course the council doesn't tell you that they just ask for everything i.e. stitch you up.
they depend on most people not knowing the regs and just paying up on the day like lambs.

and
the penalty charge isn't payable at this stage.
the penalty charge NOTICE may be payed if you choose - but that removes your statutory right of challenge.
there is no charge at this stage, just a Notice. there is no charge until at least a Charge Cert is issued.
IIRC the text back this up by saying 'outstanding penalty charges' not 'outstanding penalty charge notices.

A PCN does not give rise to a financial liability, it just gives the opportunity to avoid the enforcement stages by paying it off if you choose.

A notice of something isn't the something.
Sparxy
Am I blind, I can't seem to see any SIA number for the clamper who actually clamped the vehicle?
dave-o
It's a council tow, no SIA license is neccesary.
oldstreetticket
hey guys I've just worked out that i need to send my appeal in by Weds as my 28 days are running out soon! eeek!!! So any help asap would be very very much appreciated! CHEERS!!!
oldstreetticket













I wrote to them for more information on how to appeal and they sent me
a letter back advising that they had rejected my appeal on the grounds
that there was not much information supplied. I stated that I wanted to a)
appeal b) more information about how to do this. They have simply rejected
it without even allowing me to appeal properly!









Thanks
J_Edgar
The councils reference to the legislation below on the representation form did not look correct to me and I have just been and checked:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_2007..._en_4#pt4-l1g11


The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007

QUOTE
Right to make representations about a removed vehicle
11.—(1) This regulation applies to a person where, as respects a vehicle which has been found in a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions and removed under regulations made under section 99 of the 1984 Act—
(a)he is required to pay an amount on recovery of the vehicle under section 101A of that Act;
(b)he receives a sum in respect of the vehicle under section 101A(2) of that Act;
©he is informed that the proceeds of sale of the vehicle did not exceed the aggregate amount mentioned in that provision; or
(d)he is informed that the vehicle was disposed of without there being any proceeds of sale.
(2) A person to whom paragraph (1) applies shall immediately upon the happening of an occurrence referred to in paragraph (1) be informed—
(a)of his right to make representations to the enforcement authority in accordance with this regulation; and
(b)of his right to appeal to an adjudicator if his representations are not accepted,
and that information must include a statement of the effect of paragraphs (4) and (5).
(3) The enforcement authority shall give that information, or cause it to be given, in writing.
(4) A person to whom paragraph (1) applies may make representations to the effect—
(a)that one or more of the grounds specified in paragraph (5) apply; or
(b)that, whether or not any of those grounds apply, there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the enforcement authority should—
(i)refund some or all of the amount paid to secure the release of the vehicle or deducted from the proceeds of sale; or
(ii)waive its right to recover all or any of the sums due to it on account of the removal or disposal of the vehicle,
and any such representations shall be in such form as may be specified by the enforcement authority.


Am I missing something here or have they really rewritten the legislation to suit the purpose of their form?

(1)(a) In particular.


buttonpusher
I can see they would fight with tooth and nail to keep their version, as far as they are concerned anything else would be unthinkable, not to say expensive. Do the other London Boroughs take the same cavalier attitude to this bit of the law?
Equalizer
Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure somebody will rolleyes.gif )

But the way I'm reading those regulations (the proper ones - not the Councils fake ones!) - apart from the PCN appeal process - there is a quite seperate appeals process for instances where the vehicle has been removed (towed).

Maybe this is the cause of the confusion about having to pay the PCN at the same time as the towing charge?

Seems to open up a whole new can of worms. Needs a good moot in the flame pit. No? (Cue - a curt SP comment! wink.gif )
J_Edgar
Below is a quote from a PM Bogsy sent me (I shouldn't think he will mind me posting it here), I have pulled it out as it contains the relevent part of S.101A.

QUOTE
I still have doubt about whether the PCN should be paid immediately at the pound contrary to the 28 day period allowed for payment where a reg 9 PCN is served. S.101A of the RTRA 1984 advises;

(3) In the case of a vehicle found in an area that is a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions, the relevant charges are (a) any penalty charge payable in respect of the parking of the vehicle in the place from which it was removed.

I suppose this depends on what the law defines "payable" as meaning. Is the penalty charge "payable" at the time of recovery if a person wishes to appeal against it and when statute gives 28 days for it to be paid?


As you can see S.101A does not say "pay in full" and is open to interpretation as to its meaning.
Equalizer
QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Tue, 9 Mar 2010 - 10:26) *
Below is a quote from a PM Bogsy sent me (I shouldn't think he will mind me posting it here), I have pulled it out as it contains the relevent part of S.101A.

QUOTE
I still have doubt about whether the PCN should be paid immediately at the pound contrary to the 28 day period allowed for payment where a reg 9 PCN is served. S.101A of the RTRA 1984 advises;

(3) In the case of a vehicle found in an area that is a civil enforcement area for parking contraventions, the relevant charges are (a) any penalty charge payable in respect of the parking of the vehicle in the place from which it was removed.

I suppose this depends on what the law defines "payable" as meaning. Is the penalty charge "payable" at the time of recovery if a person wishes to appeal against it and when statute gives 28 days for it to be paid?


As you can see S.101A does not say "pay in full" and is open to interpretation as to its meaning.


I would say that the Penalty Charge only becomes "payable" when a "Penalty Charge Notice" become a "Penalty Charge" (ie - after due process).

But that is a seperate issue to the point I was trying to make above - about a different, extra, line of appeal when a vehicle is towed - quite apart from the normal appeal against a PCN. They look very similar processes - but they are not the same. You could do both!
dave-o
There are three "within" date ambiguities:





Also, we will request a copy of the CEO notes from the council, to check it was properly authorised and that the CEO weas present at the tow.

Should be an easy win. Will help you draft reps if you need.
bama
I agree with equalizer, its still just a Notice not a Charge until a charge cert has been issued and the due process has been exhausted.

A Notice of 'something' is not the 'something'.


The PCN is clear -do not pay if you wish to contest. To maintain that statutory right to contest you must not pay the PCN.
oldstreetticket
Dave-o that would be very much appreciated if you could help me draft a reply. Thanks for your help so far it's really appreciated!!!! biggrin.gif
dave-o
QUOTE
I am appealing PCN number ********** on the grounds of procedural impropriety due to defective council documentation.

Specifically, the "Representation Against a Removed Vehicle" form (copy attached), which was was served to me at the vehicle pound after payment of the towing charge and PCN charge, states three incorrect and conflicting time periods for appeal of the PCN.

-On the first page, it states "Your representation must be made within 28 days from the day which you have paid in full and been given this form"
-On the second page it states "If we fail to respond within 56 days..."
-On the second page it states "You may appeal to the adjudicator within 28 days..."

According to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations (2007), the form should state “not later than the last day of the period of X days beginning with the date of this letter”.
Use of the expression "within" implies an extra day to that I do not lawfully possess. This invalidates the document and therefore the whole process. This point was decided in the appellant’s favour in the PATAS key case Al's Bar v Wandsworth, which itself cited Trow v Ind Coope (West Midlands) Ltd. In Barnet v The Parking Adjudicator, Mr. Justice Jackson stated:
".......There must always be certainty about when the Notice was issued and the dates when the various payments will expire"

I would like to formally request that these documents be present in the council's evidence pack:
-Copies of the CEO notes relating to the ticketing, authorisation and removal of my vehicle.


You can also add the point being discussed at length in this thread about being denied the right to appeal before paying. It is a new point and untested, but it would be very helpful if you were willing to add it. Adding it will not damage your existing appeal, you will still win on the dates point.
oldstreetticket
Dropped the letter off at Hackney Parking Services waiting for their reply now....
bama
you got a signed receipt ?
oldstreetticket


RonFog
I think the car was probably towed because he was parked in a CPZ. Equalizer your rationale is spot on you wouldn't care to look at my thread on a PCN in Camden. I am getting a lot of conflicting information and could use some clear sight on this one.
oldstreetticket
hey guys just wondering if in your experience it would be worth me writing a letter to the council again or taking my case to PATAS?! I received a letter from the council in the above thread advising their decision to reject my appeal was still unchanged
J_Edgar
Looking back through the thread your PATAS appeal needed to be submitted by 01/04/2010, did you not do this?

You can submit late to the adjudicator but you will need to explain with good reason why the appeal is submitted late.

You had a winner here if you had followed the process.
oldstreetticket
The letter was sent to Hackney parking services as it wasn't made clear that it should be sent to PATAS. Might help making it clearer to other users when advising them to send a letter of appeal.

I will explain the reason why my appeal is late and see what happens...
dave-o
Doesn't it say so on the PATAS form?

You are the only person to have done this in the 2 years i have been here i think.
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