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david jones
hi guys!

firstly, a huge thanks to anyone who responds, in any way at all, to this post. im here pulling my hair out over this, so any second opinions, of any type at all will really help me sleep better!!



Ok, so. basically. this basics of this is are....

I was pulled over by a traffic unit on the 10th of December for driving without insurance. and its true. i was driving. didnt have the correct papers. (i could go into a full story about how i had already spoken with my insurers and they had informed me i was insured, but my CC payment was denied.. but thats not really important for now)





So, I was driving on the night of the 10th. ive been sent papers buy the courts... and the police man has written me up saying i was diving on the night of the 9th.

I have many witnesses to state that i was not driving the car on the 9th.

I want to put in a not guilty plee. as i was not driving the said car at the said time and date.


But. What im worried is that.... wont they just check the records further. get the two policemen involved called into the courts...find out it was on the 10th, proove that, and then throw the book at me? I know they are not going to like me putting in this not guilty plee. I dont want to make more trouble for myself.

but I would also not like to get 6 points.




What do you think? surely the police man writing me up on the wrong date is a pretty huge technicality?

"not guilty" isnt even a lie!!! ;-)) haha!! i have to give it a go??? no??


but, what if the two policemen are called into court and simply lie?? and say they have the evidence to say i was driving on the 9th?? there were 2 of them, they are police, and if they say i did? wont that sway the courts? and make a bigger problem for me?
Grant_W
Before we get into a big debate on this what time on the 10th were you stopped?

If it was minutes after midnight then they may have seen youu driving on the 9th.
david jones
it was at 8.30pm
Grant_W
So what is your evidence showing you weren't driving on 9th? You say you have many witnesses.

Where is you car parked when not driven?
david jones
the evidence i have that i wasnt driving the car on the 9th is the fact that i was at work. my boss and many others at my place of work will sign documents to back this up. i was not on the road on the 9th.

the car is not mine. its registered to my mother.

the car is kept on her driveway
Grant_W
OK, give us the full facts as they stand.

In your first post you said your creditcard had been declined.

Did the police take you car?
Renewal of insurance etc.
david jones
in the first post i did mention that i tried to insure myself as an additional "named driver" to my mother insurance policy. the insurance company are denying that i tried to process the payment. say they have no records and are in no way willing to help. i have since purchased insurance. but thats only valid from the 11th of december.

when they stopped me the police didnt take the car. they allowed my mother to complete the journey.



i realise this is me being a horrible weasely little man and trying to get out on a technicality. but the police are asking me if im guilty of driving that car on the 9th. and... well... im not!

but i am guilty of driving it on the 10th!!


(corrected for spellings)
BaggieBoy
Since you were pulled and didn't have insurance at the time I don't think the error on the police statement will be a bar to prosecution. If you go to court and point out the error, the CPS will almost certainly request that the information be corrected using the "slip rule" and the court will agree.
Grant_W
Your lucky your mother hasn't also been done for using without insurance, if she was with you.

You could fight this but it may open a can of worms.
david jones
hmmmm. i had read about the "slip rule"... but surely i can go to my hearing and say "it wasnt me" and its up to them to prove that it was. and to use the corrected date? how will they find out this date? surely they are already using all the information they have against me.

i was not driving that car on the 9th




mum was allowed to continue the journey because she had insurance at the time.
BaggieBoy
So you would be willing to stand before the court and claim you were not stopped at all? I believe that is called perjury.
Grant_W
How will they find the date?


Well the 10th could be a typing error, when called to court they may look at pocket books and realise their error.
david jones
"would i be willing to claim i was never stopped... that is perjury"

i understand this. i was not going to lie. merely state my case that i was not there on the said date.
Grant_W
Any reason why you weren't offered a FPN for the matter?


Driving less than two years, 6 or more points all ready?
led zep
The Officer may have submitted his statement and it may have have the wrong date applied to it.I have no doubt as others have said they CPS will ask for amendents to be introduced.Also there may be PNC record check and or a Control room incident log at the time.(This may even be a typing error if you have a typed copy of Statement)

If you are seen to be playing on the date only then yopu will no doubt come a cropper ar court.What day does the statement say?.I think you are clutching at straws.They CPS can introduce other witnesses Control Room Staff PNC Operator PNC Records etc.
david jones
"Any reason why you weren't offered a FPN for the matter?

Driving less than two years, 6 or more points all ready? "

i dont know why i wasnt given a fixed penalty. i have been on the uk roads for more than 10 years without a single ticket, fine or RTA.







"If you are seen to be playing on the date only then yopu will no doubt come a cropper ar court"


this is, of course, my concern. i dont want to make further problems down the line.

but they are asking me if i am guilty or not guilty of driving on the 9th. and i am not guilty of driving on the 9th. i can say that honestly and truthfully. and have witnesses.

but, yeah... it is "playing the date" but "coming a cropper at court" is kinda of were i find myself.
if i say i did it i get 6 points... if i say i didnt.. they have to prove i did?



my court date is feb 24. i leave the country on march 5th and wont return untill October. they probably wont like that much either? hu?

i guess i should add im a "non dom" "a british resident who is not ordinarily resident"

i live overseas. I have actually flown back from my dream life in south east asia to do all these papers and attend at the dates they gave for me. i will be leaving in march and not returning untill ocotber.


but they sent the wrong info. and im trying to weasel my way out. before i leave on march 5th.
Jimzzr
QUOTE (david jones @ Thu, 18 Feb 2010 - 10:46) *
in the first post i did mention that i tried to insure myself as an additional "named driver" to my mother insurance policy. the insurance company are denying that i tried to process the payment. say they have no records and are in no way willing to help. i have since purchased insurance. but thats only valid from the 11th of december.

when they stopped me the police didnt take the car. they allowed my mother to complete the journey.



i realise this is me being a horrible weasely little man and trying to get out on a technicality. but the police are asking me if im guilty of driving that car on the 9th. and... well... im not!

but i am guilty of driving it on the 10th!!


(corrected for spellings)


It's quite unusual for insurance companies not to record calls these days. Presumably you would know the date and time of the call? I would try writing (don't bother phoning you'll just get fobbed off and send it recorded delivery) to their complaints department outlining what happend and demanding a copy of the call under the data protection act. Also ask for copies of any subsequent communications relating to this call. Seems rather unlikely to me they would have no record whatsoever.

If you could get information from them showing that they said you were covered and didn't inform you when the payment failed that might be enough to get a 'special reasons not to endorse'.


david jones
i spoke with my insurers. they are a small firm in a small south western town. the deny the whole thing and claim that have no records of the event.
jimster
You tried to alter the terms of your mother’s insurance policy?
Was it your mother who made the call?
david jones
i called the insurers with my mother present. she went though some security questions. i then took over the call. gave them my info. they came back with a quotation there and then on the line. the cost to add me to her policy was 70 pound. which i tried to pay with my credit card... which was then declined. i was not contacted back.

it could be a case for "special circumstances" and the police report even sates that i said that i believed i was insured at the time...


but as the insurer is refusing to co-operate in any way its a pretty weak case. i have no documentation to back this up and my credit card people also say there is no way to prove or disprove what happened.

Ive spent this morning talking with some specialist lawyers about this. they all seem to think i would be worth my while going an attending the date on the 24. pleading not guilty to driving on the 9th. telling them im leaving the country on the 5th of march and seeing what the courts do next. trying to delay for 6 months... after which they can no longer apply the "slip rule" ???
Grant_W
QUOTE (david jones @ Thu, 18 Feb 2010 - 12:26) *
Ive spent this morning talking with some specialist lawyers about this. they all seem to think i would be worth my while going an attending the date on the 24. pleading not guilty to driving on the 9th. telling them im leaving the country on the 5th of march
and seeing what the courts do next. trying to delay for 6 months... after which they can no longer apply the "slip rule" ???


Is that a question your asking us?

What did your specialist lawyers say about this?

Do you hold a UK driving licence?
david jones
yes i hold a full uk drivers licence and have done for a little over 10 years without accident, claims or convictions of any type. ever.


the lawyers are all saying i should send them 2000 and they will represent me. one claims that if we can delay for 6 months (and im going away in a few days for more than 6 months) that the "slip rule" can no longer be applied and if the policemans original note book is called as evidence it will show that i wasnt driving on the 9th.

but, of course, the lawyers are trying to sell me a service. and of course they want me to send them 2k.

I realise is a dodgy line im trying to walk... but the forms ask me if i am guilty or not guilty of driving on the 9th. and, of that crime, i am not guilty.
david jones
"driving without insurance isnt a crime" ??? nice! id love a little more info on that! it sounds like my ideal line of defence! ;-)


and as for "what would i trust more a forum or a specialist lawyer"?? i would honestly trust free advice more than the shyster lawyers who are, in fact, paid liars. it is their job to bend and distort the truth. im sure they are bending it to me when they say i have a "very good chance" of an aquittal... "just send along the two grand!" I truly think that places like this, were i am able to be honest, open and truthful and receive honest open and truthful opinions are worth more than the lawyers who are trying to sell me something.
southpaw82
My feeling is that you'll come a cropper if you pursue this line. You have a chance of getting away with it but that chance is slim. If you don't live in the UK (I don't either) then why not simply take the six points and fine and be done with it? It'll cost you more than that coming back to the UK to go to court, surely?
david jones
yeah. your probably right. the "wise" thing to do would be to swallow my pride and take the kick in the shins. but the form asks if i was driving on the 9th. i was not... i would actually be lying by saying i was guilty!!!
The Rookie
Semantics, plead guilty or contest it.....if you contest based on date alone I give you know better than a 1% chance of success, the law(s) are not on your side, they are designed to encourage justice not TV style escape loopholes!

If you want to contest it on the basis of believing you were insured, do you not have a phone record (bill) that shows you made the call?

Simon
ict_guy
QUOTE (david jones @ Thu, 18 Feb 2010 - 12:26) *
i called the insurers with my mother present. she went though some security questions. i then took over the call. gave them my info. they came back with a quotation there and then on the line. the cost to add me to her policy was 70 pound. which i tried to pay with my credit card... which was then declined. i was not contacted back.


Can your credit card company confirm that a payment was processed and declined? With time and date? If so, then the insurance company should have written to you - but they say they have 'no record' of this transaction..... Quite easy to disprove don't you think?

PS. I think you need to forget about getting off on the date being wrong - this will be corrected. Start working towards proving that you did actually go through the steps of insuring the car for you to drive!
david jones
no. the credit card people say nothing was processed. the insurance company are not being helpful. so thats kinda dead in the water.

david jones
well. after giving this a lot of thought. im going to send back the forms saying im not guilty of driving the car on that date and see what they come back with. i will go to the court date on the 24th and represent myself. and also inform them i will be leaving the uk on the 5th of march. obviously im not going to lie under oath. and if they ask if i was driving on the 10th... i'll say yes. i was. and im guilty of that.

they are asking me if i was driving on that day. i was not. so screw them.

whats the very worst that can happen? maby i get 8 points not 6?

but, hey, i might get off Scott Free!

worth rolling the dice i recon! just to do em over! it'll be worth it for that alone!!!


a big big thanks to all those who have posted on this. i will come back an update this post with what happens next!!
Grant_W
Tell then your leaving the country you may not get bail lol.
The Rookie
The penalty for no insurance is 6-8points or a ban, you also get 1/3 of the fine for an early guilty plea - fine is 125-175% of your weekly take home after tax and NI only.

Date scenarios,
1/ pitch up in court copper says it was the 9th, you say no it wasn't he says the 10th, slip rule applied, guilty
2/ Pitch up in court, don't contest coppers version, you give evidence, prosecution cry ambush, case postponed and they fix it for next hearing, then guilty
3/ You submit compliant def statement, they sort it guilty

erm........

You can't claim you were disadvantaged by the date as you know full well when you were stopped.

Simon
david jones
well... i'll be flying back to my great place in Bali in indo to surf till i puke.

notice... they cant refuse bail. or...

they cant refuse bali?

hahahhahaaa!!! so similar.


lolololololol


is there a greater meaning working there?? my brother tells me im a fool to contest this. that i should pay the small fines and get the marks on the plastic card that wont even last long and fly back to slum it up on the beach. my father is a raging mad man and CEO who thinks we have to go all guns blazing into the court house in our fancy clothes and CONTEST EVERYTHING.


so im still in two minds.


they cant really deny me bail over a road traffic thing can they?????? that would be the decider. if they can deny Bali. then i'll pay the fine and admit fault.

they surely cant deny me bail for no insurance?


from the 24th of feb to march 5th will they be able to get the copper back into the courts to testify against me??

surely at that moment they will be able to pull up further information from the computers (when they checked my driving licence numbers etc etc) those things wiil surely corroborate the policeman's story?? thereby destroying mine... and with it my only hopes of clemency???????
ford poplar
After receiving wide-ranging advice from multiple sources, it is up to the OP to answer any questions posed, honestly & truthfully, without embellishment.
Provide the answer, not the question.

However, with the Ins Co / CC Co I would ask a lot more questions.
Why was payment refused?
Does CC Co have record of declining payment or authorisation request?
(poss because not paid by Mum's CC or previous payment method?)
Grant_W
QUOTE (david jones @ Thu, 18 Feb 2010 - 17:13) *
from the 24th of feb to march 5th will they be able to get the copper back into the courts to testify against me??


That's only six clear days, they won't sort it that quick.
david jones
haha! fair enough. i thought i was here to ask questions.

i will try to provide more answers in my coming posts.


but, nah ford... CC card says nothing shows. no records of a failed transaction. insurance company are doing all they can to say no and not help me... cos, as you can imagine... the morning after getting a tug for no insurance, i phoned them up and gave them the kind of bollocking i reserve for special occasions! I drank many many coffees from before dawn to 9.01 when i really took off the mask and gave them BOTH BARRELS. so. i dont think they will be forthcoming with any help. they denied it all then. and by now certainly dont have any records of the event. and wouldnt be forthcoming even if there was.
Grant_W
That way your going you will be dealt with in absence.
southpaw82
No, you won't be denied bail (unless you've previously failed to answer bail) rolleyes.gif
captain swoop
Was your CC processed while you were on the phone? If it was did they tell you it had been declined or call you back? If not, how do you know it was declined?
ford poplar
QUOTE (david jones @ Thu, 18 Feb 2010 - 07:57) *
(i could go into a full story about how i had already spoken with my insurers and they had informed me i was insured, but my CC payment was denied.. but thats not really important for now)



It would appear to be the crux of the matter and worth relating in full now.
david jones
ok. to relate in full the story about the attempted insurance purchase.

i came back from indo in ocotber after the trade winds gave out. I called me mums insurance people. she had to i.d. herself on the phone. i then spoke with the dolly bird. she took my info. driving history. blah blah blah. checked mums info about were she parks the car blah blah blah. she came back with a quote. 70 notes. fine. cool. awesome. i gave over me CC card info. i dont know if they did or did not process the card at that moment. i assume they did, cos thats how it goes. they try to bill you as soon as they bloody well can... but i dont know for sure what happened. the girl told me i was insured. told me i was good to go, and that i would be sent the documents. I went straight to Maroc and surfed. i had an ireland surf mission. hit Scotland too.. surfed my nut off... but no cover note arrived. nothing appeared on my cc statement. to be honest... totally honest... i didnt realise or check either of those two things. sure, i should have. looking back now... damn i wish i had. i wish i had picked it up, cos adding me on mums policy cost 70 notes for the year. and this thing has been a raging head ache... for a while now. but i was too busy planning surf trips and waxing my stick.

weak. daft. dumb. yes.

I realise that they offered me a verbal contract of insurance. and when i spoke to them i raised that matter. but they were very closed off to the idea. haha! were very stand off-ish. a well structured lawyers response was what i got back. "no. not me. not ever. not how. good bye now". they absolutely, point blank, refused to help, in any way, when i was being a super polite, calm, smarmy git. i asked to speak to "managers" in the office. and they denied it. said there was no record of it. said there was no "proof of it". told me it never happened. after debating it all morning in a half a dozen phone calls to a handful of different people in the office there... i absolutely flipped on them. really. really... lost my cool. did my red incredible hulk thing. the red mist descended... and i gave em a series of 20 min BARRAGES. i friggen FLIPPED> they put me in this situation. they got me in this trouble. the first time in my life ive had a speeding ticket, even so much as a parking fine in the uk (i moved over seas at 17! haha! no-one has a cleaner driving record!) so. there is no chance of help or assistance from the insurance company. as they werent forthcoming.... even before the harsh words and the insults repeated swearing. now? they certainly wont be! my own fault. i should have delt with them better. maby face to face. but, whatevers.

dumb. yes.

im me. and im not changing.



so, i genuinely was under the mistaken belief i was insured. but, well, thats neither here or there. ignorance is no fault of the law etc etc etc. and i know that. i mean, i could say i was under the mistaken belief its ok to steal... that prolly wouldnt get my off an armed robbery case!

i didnt have insurance when i was driving. so.. theyve got me. bang to rights. but. i was not driving on the 9th. yeah, sure, i should just roll over and let em do me. but... well... thats not how i was raised to deal with authority. its dumb. its stupid. but i truly want to put one over on plod. also. i showed no i.d. on the road side. surely... i mean... i wasnt there on the 9th.

its pretty weak tho. and im trying to leave on the 5th of march. and it would suck to still have this running while im away. it would also suck for the copper cited on the forms to get involved, to come back, make the simple correction... and then for him to really stick his size 10's up my hole and get me banned from driving and whacked with a huge fine. that would be the worst possible outcome from this. and that looks much more likely if i try to contest this.

i have also been receiving lots of council on this matter from all sorts of scummy lawyers. some seem to think i have something worth fighting. others dont. its a mess. and its my mess.

nice!

welcome back!

the davey jones locker
david jones
a huge huge huge personal thanks to everyone that posted. Grant W was especially active. THANKS.

i will give an abridged version in the "successful cases" for other people to read up on.
southpaw82
QUOTE (david jones @ Fri, 19 Feb 2010 - 18:54) *
i guess the message to the moderators and to the regular posters here is that... EVERYTHING should always be contested. if i would have "rolled over" they would have stuffed me just the same. but by having a good look at every single detail on every single document can sometimes be enough to put you in the clear!!!!!!! try to push any angle is ALWAYS WORTH IT. and dont hire lawyers cos they are LYING SCUM. and listen to the wise advice of the regulars here!!!


Your individual case (in which you were lucky) is not a sufficient basis on which to give advice such as that.
bama
is she putting it in a letter ?
srg
QUOTE (bama @ Fri, 19 Feb 2010 - 19:20) *
is she putting it in a letter ?


Yes, you need to be careful - the next letter you get might be you have been found guilty in your absence.
simblack
Good on you.

I can't say I condone driving uninsured but that said I whole heartedly condemn some uses of speed cameras, police resources and my money. It's about time the little man got a victory, albeit on a technicality.

I find each and every case and its' trial is different. That what makes it such a pain; such a worry- the unpredictability. While it’s true that this doesn't mean erroneous documents will automatically see a case thrown out of court, surely if just 1% are than it’s worth spending a little time going through them with a fine tooth comb.

Oscar21
I dont want to appear negative but from the off you were certain the CC had been declined, but then you say the insurance has no record of you even speaking to them, how was it possible you knew the card was declined then, there could have been any number of reasons there was no insurance, company inputted wrong details or added you to wrong account or phone dolly on the fiddle etc. anything really.

Dont get me wrong I'm not having a go and dont think no insurance is the biggest crime of the century (or drink driving) but you are lucky you dont have to answer the above sort of questions before the magistrates.
david jones
she says she will put it in a letter.

i just HACKED the **** out of my other posts.


i seems to be the covert way to deal with it???


i will give it a full write up once i have this letter giving me the ok in my hands.



full updates will come plus photos of me laughing. score!


mega-boom! its a mega-boom. meh-ga-boom. megaboom.
peterguk
QUOTE (Oscar21 @ Fri, 19 Feb 2010 - 20:19) *
Dont get me wrong I'm not having a go and dont think no insurance is the biggest crime of the century (or drink driving)


Really? From a motoring point of view, IMHO, two of the worst possible.
captain swoop
Have I missed something? there seems to be a chunk missing out of this thread?
peterguk
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Sat, 20 Feb 2010 - 00:16) *
Have I missed something? there seems to be a chunk missing out of this thread?


OP seems to have edited his "I got off scott free" thread...

QUOTE (david jones @ Fri, 19 Feb 2010 - 20:37) *
i just HACKED the **** out of my other posts.

i seems to be the covert way to deal with it???

full updates will come plus photos of me laughing. score!
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