Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Continuous Contravention
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
scoops414
Ok so I was parked two wheels on the kerb and got 2 tickets at 9pm and 11 am - that's got to be a continuous contravention (it never stopped being a contravention).

Alot of people on these forums say no multiple tickets for a continuous contravention but my appeal has been refused and I'd really like the legislation on continuous contraventions before I decide to go to the adjudicator.

Any ideas - I've been to Geffen v Westminster which does imply the above is true but it is not clear.

Your thoughts would be gratefully received.

Cheers
DP491
Not sure about issue of two tickets for one offence (others will comment) but it would be a start to post up pictures of the car if available, signage, and scans of the PCN front and back.
Teufel
there is no clear adjudciation on this issue

IMLTHO both pcns would stand but thats just an informed guess
buttonpusher
Remove identifying marks and reg. Leave dates and times.
ford poplar
I think they will use the common sense approach of seperate days (midnight being the changeover), seperate offences, as for parking. Otherwise the highway (and pavements) would be cluttered with long term parking for £60 penalty.

Continuous offence usually related to speeding through 2 or more cameras if you can show the driver did not slow down, stop or turn around between cameras.

Just my opinion tho
Equalizer
Bit negative for OP so far. I'm of a different opinion - a continuous offence is the same offence and shouldn't therefore be penalised just because a date changes. Think what that would mean for some poor guy who parked for 10 minutes at 23:55 !!

But - just like the other posters - I don't know of any law or precedent I can quote. I suppose it's that thorny old question of "reasonableness" again! I am aware - but can't put my finger on - similar cases where the Council has agreed to withdraw later tickets.

But don't make that appeal yet until pictures are posted and forum members have had a chance to comment.
Teufel
would a PCN at 23:59 and then another at 00:01 stand then ?

i think not


or could the OP hav lef his ar for a week and only expect one pcn ?

i think not


i think geffen supports the 1 per day doctrine - the application of this needs to be reasonable
with a clear intent to issue one per day akthoiugh not necessrily exaclty 24 hrs apart
quickboy
I am fairly certain it goes on calendar days. Have seen it written down somewhere and will try to dig it out. They cant issue a second pcn before midnight on the same day for the same contravention, but they could technically issue one at 1 minute past midnight.
quickboy
QUOTE (Equalizer @ Mon, 25 Jan 2010 - 20:18) *
a continuous offence is the same offence and shouldn't therefore be penalised just because a date changes.

Just had a look at the DfT Operational Guidance to councils regarding two PCNs for the same offence. Quite a long document but page 48 has the information quoted below. Here is the link to the entire document:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/adobepdf/165240/2449...forcepolicy.pdf

"8.46 If two or more PCNs are issued within 24 hours for the same contravention,

that is, to a vehicle that has not been moved, it is current practice to cancel

the second PCN. It may be sensible to review both PCNs and cancel the one

with the least robust evidence."



Glacier2
One PCN per 24 hour period is allowed.
Gan
My cousin regularly has this situation of a series of tickets if he parks long-term. He only ever pays the first.

He discovered that they can't tow the company Hummer.
strollingplayer
10 hours is a little close, and the guidance certainly runs against this. If it had been 11am the day after that (that is, the vehicle had been there for two nights), then I could well understand getting two tickets. There might be some mileage in suggesting the council has been duplicitous and has issued the tickets improperly (on the off chance that they cancel both).

QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 26 Jan 2010 - 07:41) *
He discovered that they can't tow the company Hummer.

I suppose they can't clamp it either (short of wedging the tow truck under the wheel arches).

"You know you're driving a Hummer when you're regularly clearing the wheel arches of squirrels, foxes, and little old ladies."
Gan
He runs a "security" company staffed by former members of the armed forces.

Some clients can't accept that the best security is to be invisible - hence the Hummer.
scoops414
Thanks everyone - seems the jury's out on this one - whatever the rule is it should be made clearer.

unfortunately I can't post tickets or photos as I have mislaid them now but other than the 'two tickets for a continuous contravention' issue they've got me bang to rights.

The annoying thing is that it was totally legal to park there I only put my wheels up on the kerb because everyone else in the road had, so I thought it was ok (stupid I know; the whole road got 2 tickets !).

I think I'll pay ticket no 1 and chance my arm by challenging the NTO for ticket 2.

Is it true that by appealing you automatically lose the ability to pay the reduced fine. Seems pretty unreasonable that people with genuine grounds might pay up just to avoid the possibility of their fine (which was unjustified in the first place) doubling.

One last thing - do they have to respond to initial appeals within a certain timeframe ? I first appealed this in November but only just got sent the appeal refusal letter. Over 2 months later !
strollingplayer
QUOTE (scoops414 @ Tue, 26 Jan 2010 - 16:08) *
(stupid I know; the whole road got 2 tickets !).

Given the guidance, you may be able to nail the council for malfeasance at the Local Government Ombudsman.

QUOTE
Is it true that by appealing you automatically lose the ability to pay the reduced fine.

Depends on the individual council's policy.

QUOTE
One last thing - do they have to respond to initial appeals within a certain timeframe ? I first appealed this in November but only just got sent the appeal refusal letter. Over 2 months later !

At the informal stage, they have nothing more than a duty to consider your appeal. They have anything up to six months to issue an NTO (the longer they take, the better they need to explain themselves), and only then do they have a time limit for your representation.
scoops414
Thanks strollingplayer - nailing the council for malfeasance sounds fun (whatever it is) but I'm afraid the theiving malfeasances carry the day this time. I'm giving up.

Until the next time - thanks smile.gif
strollingplayer
If you put in an informal challenge, the council may, at their discretion, extend the discount period, but they do not have to. However, unless you miss the deadlines, you will not have to pay anything more than the full amount.

Without seeing anything more of the tickets or the scene, we can't help, other than to say that if you do go on, you are gambling that the council's NTO is defective. Some are right, some are wrong. It would be a gamble, and it's up to you whether you take it or not. The malfeasance is in merely issuing the second ticket, which you say you're going to appeal anyway - there is nothing to stop you paying one and complaining to the LGO over the other, and I imagine someone here will help you with complaint too.
clark_kent
QUOTE (strollingplayer @ Tue, 26 Jan 2010 - 16:25) *
QUOTE (scoops414 @ Tue, 26 Jan 2010 - 16:08) *
(stupid I know; the whole road got 2 tickets !).

Given the guidance, you may be able to nail the council for malfeasance at the Local Government Ombudsman.




How do you come to that conclusion?

strollingplayer
On the obvious basis outlined above.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.