Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: PCN 1st Appeal Failure. What now?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Azimuth99
Hello,

I have been advised to come to this forum by some good people on MoneySavingsExpert.com. My thread can be found as follows

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth....html?t=2216231

Sadly I have lost my first informal appeal, but feel my financial situation/circumstances warrant appealing again. £35 - £70 is a lot of money for me, and there
seems a real lack of compassion or understanding as events unfold.

QUOTE
MoneySaving Newbie

Join Date: Dec 2009 Post Count: 14 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts PCN appeal failure. Can I appeal again? Hello,

Back on the 14th January 2010, I got my first ever parking ticket. I had strayed in to a taxi only zone, that abutted the disabled parking area which I thought I was parking in. The taxi area was empty. I displayed my blue badge as usual - and when I returned 20 minutes later, I got a ticket with Contravention Code 23.

I appealed via e-mail, citing my blue badge number (thinking they had missed it), unclear markings and my inability to pay £70 (£35 if paid early) as I'm unemployed, receive no benefits, and care for my elderly parents. Basically, compassion grounds.

My appeal was rejected today (via written letter) - with procedural quotes from council parking regs. They said I should have parked on double yellows, or council parking (far away) as it's free for disabled (which seems to completely ignore the fact that most disabled parkers go for 'close proximity'. Being free isn't much use if you have trouble walking a distance).

Anyway, what I cannot work out is whether I can appeal again? The council parking guide says that if I don't pay, I get an NtO, and have to represent infront of the Council or independant adjudictor. Is this basically a second tier appeal i.e. the last stop?

Any insights warmly welcomed...


Azimuth99



Here are my original PCN image copies and the reply to my first appeal.



PCN Front at http://i49.tinypic.com/aoror9.jpg
PCN Back at http://i45.tinypic.com/6ixvmw.jpg
Letter Page 1 at http://i50.tinypic.com/359zv9l.jpg
Letter Page 2 at http://i47.tinypic.com/t687qc.jpg

Subsequently, MoneySavingsExpert forum dwellers asked me to post actual pictures of the area. These are duplicated below

Pitville Road on Goole Maps

Google Maps http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour.....008256&z=18

Image 1 - Where I was parked. Red 4x4 in same place 'ish'. I was further back. 4x4 has disabled badge. In taxi zone. No ticket given. Taxi zone empty as usual.
http://i46.tinypic.com/wag7eg.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/kajqz6.jpg

Image 2. Upright sign. Did not see this.
http://i50.tinypic.com/34riwyb.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/sw332x.jpg

Image 2.5. Sign at head of 'TAXI zone'
http://i46.tinypic.com/2mhwyzp.jpg

Image 3. Road markings - which I went by, and got wrong. Note HUGE disabled word, and tiny taxi word.
http://i47.tinypic.com/4rrn29.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/33lfq6f.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/dtt6p.jpg
http://i48.tinypic.com/28bbsrc.jpg

Image 4. Taxi bay. Empty as usual.
http://i46.tinypic.com/jr8qv4.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/vfeds9.jpg

Image 5. White van without blue badge parked in disabled zone. No ticket given. Apparently, this is always happening (according to locals).
http://i49.tinypic.com/ibe4p5.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/zoby4j.jpg

Image 6. Elderly home volunteer bus. Half in / half out. No ticket given. Very similar to how I parked.
http://i49.tinypic.com/10ohcnp.jpg

================================================================================
==========

Basically, as this is my first ever ticket, I'm a bit stumped on how to proceed. The Council seem to have ignored my first appeal on compassion grounds completely,
and also, as a person with a disability, I find the situation troubling for others coming up behind with disabilities - even though disabled drivers park in the same place
every day (as Taxi Cabs rarely appear or number above one), without being ticketed. Indeed, even the Loading Zone at the rear of the disabled area is awash with parked cars
and lurkers.

When i parked, I was guided by the big DISABLED white signs on the road, and thought I was safe. I completely missed the zone merger signs. I find the dual purpose
disabled/taxi merger zone very confusing.

Is there anything I can do?


Any insights warmly received (good or bad).


Azimuth99
clark_kent
Wrong contravention used it should be 'parked on a restricted taxi stand' a taxi is not a class of vehicle its a use of a vehicle you can use a car or a mini bus and still be a taxi. You could also be disabled and be a taxi so blue badges are not 'prohibited' from the bay.
strollingplayer
Rejection at first instance is usual. Wait for the Notice to Owner, where your appeal grounds will be "the contravention did not occur".
Anorak
The taxi rank signage is not prescribed within the TSRGD 2002. It is highly unlikely the council has been given authority to use those signs as there is no need to deviate from the taxi signage that the TSRGD 2002 does prescribe. In your next appeal advise the council that the taxi rank signage is unlawful as it is neither prescribed nor authorised as required by section 64 of the RTRA 1984.
clark_kent
Just got around to looking at the photos the upright signs are not a parking 'restriction' they are to indicate where taxis may ply for trade you have a 99.99% chance of winning this if you appeal properly.
roythebus
I think you'll find that though any vehicle under 8 seats can be used as a taxi, to be classed as one it must display a hackney carriage plate.

So yes, a taxi can display a blue badge as the taxi driver could be disabled, or he could be carrying a disabled passenger who holds the blue badge.

But, if the signs are non-compliant, ker-ching for the OP.
Alexis
Just the summarise the process:

• Informal appeal
• Second appeal ie. making Representations in writing after receiving a Notice to Owner.
• Third appeal to the Adjudicator. Appearing in person is optional.
Azimuth99
Thank you evryone. Sorry for late arrival. Had to go and read RTRA 1984 first.

@Anorak. I've read the relevant sections. Section 64 is an amendment only. Not that I doubt you, but surely the Council would not erect 'illegal' signs, or does this all hinge on the basic definition of restriction. If the area is only restricted within the 'opinion' of the serving officer, but not legally then I undertsand. Otherwise, I don't. I'm just having a hard time believing the signage is unlawful. Am I on the right track - or way off?

@clark_kent. Thank you. The 'ply trade' expression you use, summarises my frustration exactly. At no time did I deprieve anyone of trade, let alone a taxi driver. This is independant of me not realising I was in the wrong area.

@roythebus. Thank you. I agree. I guess any vehicle can be a taxi. This Hackney registration I suppose is a legal requirement - perhaps.

@Alexis. Thanks for that. It's a bit clearer now. When my first informal appeal failed - I thought that was it. Pay or be smacked!

Someone has also mentioned that TAXI road markings within area are 'unlawful' as they could be hidden from view. Road markings should be external to zone. Anyone care to comment?

Azimuth99
jufair
On first sight, of the pictures, I did not see any taxi bays, what I saw was nothing like what a taxi bay should look like.
What should bo there is a P1028.2 sheet 2 0f 2, with the bay markings in yellow, with the inscription down the out side of the bay the word TAXIS. This bay can also be used by Police Vehicles and Ambulances.
I see the word TAXI in yellow, but that as near as it gets.
I recon this so called taxi rank is nowt but a load of rubbish, and not a recognised parking bay................
Azimuth99
Thanks jufair. You might be right!

I'm still worried about this unlawful thing though. Wading through TSRGD 2002 at the moment. Let's see what that brings.

Azimuth99
southpaw82
QUOTE (Azimuth99 @ Sat, 23 Jan 2010 - 13:36) *
@Anorak. I've read the relevant sections. Section 64 is an amendment only. Not that I doubt you, but surely the Council would not erect 'illegal' signs, or does this all hinge on the basic definition of restriction. If the area is only restricted within the 'opinion' of the serving officer, but not legally then I undertsand. Otherwise, I don't. I'm just having a hard time believing the signage is unlawful. Am I on the right track - or way off?


laugh.gif

Don't have a hard time believing it - councils all over the UK regularly use unlawful traffic signs. If you read through this forum you'll find hundreds of cases won on unlawful signs.
Azimuth99
*** UPDATE *****

Took a while.

Received my NtO on 31/03/2010.

Proceeding with PePiPoo suggestions and second appeal as stated.

Are there any appeal templates available, or example NtO replies?

Azimuth99
dave-o
We don't advise template appeals.

Understand the points offered here, write a draft appeal in your own words and then post it here so people can help you perfect it.
Azimuth99
OK. For those who think they could help my NtO response, the link below has the first draft, containing all the above suggestions, and some of my own,

Any help warmly appreciated (as always).

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Z4LGBAPV

Azimuth99
ford poplar
Cut & paste your appeal text here, we dislike opening links to unknown sites.

IMO short and sweet
Contravention did not occur, non-compliant road markings and street plates for taxi bay (TSGR&D) see image http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113bi.gif Image 135 sched 6 of TSGR&D diag 1028.2
Poss rejection of formal appeal, then appeal to national adjudicator, attend in person if poss. Council will prob fold before adjudication hearing.
Azimuth99
Understood. Apologies for the link - I didn't know what to do. Tinypic doesn't take txt files.

Anyway, pasted below, as requested...

The Alleged Contravention Did Not Occur.




  1. The taxi rank signage is not prescribed within the TSRGD 2002. I believe it is unlikely the council has been given authority to use those signs as there is no need to deviate from the taxi signage that the TSRGD 2002 does prescribe. Taxi rank signage is unlawful as it is neither prescribed nor authorised as required by section 64 of the RTRA 1984.
  2. Wrong contravention used it should be 'parked on a restricted taxi stand' a taxi is not a class of vehicle its a use of a vehicle you can use a car or a mini bus and still be a taxi. You could also be disabled and be a taxi so blue badges are not 'prohibited' from the bay.
  3. Omission of P1028.2 sheet 2 of 2, with the bay markings in yellow, with the inscription down the out side of the bay the word TAXIS.
  4. Non-compliant road markings. Disabled parking area contains worded TAXI road markings within prescribed area, against best practise. TAXI road marking could be obscured by parked vehicle. Reference see image 135 sched 6 of TSGR&D diag 1028.2.
  5. Non-compliant signage. Upright signs are not a parking 'restriction'. They are to indicate where taxis may ply for trade. Again, this reinforces the priority of a fiscal agenda over disability (see Other Reasons below).
Other Reasons.

  1. I strongly feel that the fiscal argument for Taxi trade appears to be taking precedence over disability criteria. This is in opposition to the Disability Discrimination Act.
  2. At no time were the taxi drivers deprived of the ability to 'ply trade'. The Council have not provided evidence to the contrary.
  3. My personal ability to pay, and current unemployed status (as outlined in first informal appeal) have so far, been ignored.
Azimuth99
ford poplar
Why don't you let them do their own homework.
Just say 'Contravention did not occur - no taxi bay exists due to non-compliant road markings and street plates" END APPEAL
(Note TSRG&D legend requires TAXIS not TAXI)

'Other reasons' paragraph not valid.
1.There is no fiscal argument, the Law prohibits legitimate BB holders, not just disabled drivers, from using enforceable taxi bays, DDA does not overide.
2. Taxi drivers may disagree, they have to pay for a taxi license and expect ranks.
3. Your 'personal ability to pay, and current unemployed status (as outlined in first informal appeal) have so far, been ignored'. Irrelevent, just one in a million
southpaw82
QUOTE (ford poplar @ Thu, 15 Apr 2010 - 19:07) *
Why don't you let them do their own homework.
Just say 'Contravention did not occur - no taxi bay exists due to non-compliant road markings and street plates" END APPEAL
(Note TSRG&D legend requires TAXIS not TAXI)


An appeal that gives reasons is far more likely to be considered than one that just makes assertions and does nothing to back them up.
Azimuth99
Thanks @ford popular.

Many thanks @southpaw82. I have to agree with southpaw82. If you don't put explanations, or at least try to explain, it's the same as saying 'because I say so'. Far too open-ended and trite.

As for the 'other reasons', which are permitted in the NtO (last box on NtO),

Argument 1, notice the 'I feel'. I'm not putting forward a legal counterpoint or playing trumps. It's how I feel. I feel the disabled are getting short shrift here. Legal/procedural arguments go in the 'contravention did not occur' area.

Your argument against 2 reinforces the fiscal argument in itself. Taxi driver opinions not required.

In addition, means to pay and circumstances are VERY relevant to all, not just me. Councils are supposedly there to serve the public interest, so the human angle is perfectly valid. No-one benefits from the action except the Council gaining £70+, so who are the Council serving here?

I don't believe the 'other reasons' should be water-tight legal arguments at all. They should be more about how I feel about the situation, my circumstances and anecdotal evidence/photo evidence of the underuse of the taxi zone, other disabled drivers parking there (without fine), disabled spaces being taken up by vans (without fine) etc, etc. All of which I have seen, far too often in this one troublesome zone. Disabled drivers really do seem to get hammered here, for no real gain to anyone except the Council. Since getting my ticket, I have seen far too many disabled people coming back to receive tickets, and the subsequent despair, as the taxi zone lies empty.

The parking authority may not give a damn, nor the council, nor the taxi drivers - but I don't want to follow their example.

Azimuth99
Azimuth99
**** UPDATE ****

As my learned PePiPoo'ers forecast, my appeal to council has been denied.

I have received a Charge Sheet.

Now proceeding to Traffic Penalty Tribunal (8/5/10).

Azimuth99
tommerc
read my post JUDICIAL REVIEW IS THIS THE ONLY OPTION ? and check your nto see if it has the same mistakes
Azimuth99
*** CORRECTION ****

Thank you tommerc for your reply - but I may have made an error.

I have received a Charge Certificate, but not a 'Rejection Of Representations' to my appeal to the NtO.

Can someone advise me whether this Charge Certificate is automated? If so, my formal rejection from the council
(to my formal appeal) has yet to materialise.

The Charge Certificate says 'pay within 14 days', as the fine has not been paid (obviously), but makes no mention
of my formal appeal.

IF I am reading this right, I must wait a bit longer for the formal rejection i.e. it's pending.

Am I way off base here, or 'sort of' right?

Bit confused. Any help welcome...

Azimuth99
bama
when the NoR is missing in action it does pause the process !!

'Charge Sheet' ? ?

I bet thats not its title.

Is it a in fact a Charge Certificate ?
If so you need to wait for the Order For Recovery (OfR) before you can play your next move.
Azimuth99
My apologies.

Quite correct @bama, it is in fact the 'Charge Certificate'.

I shall go back and edit my previous.

Azimuth99
Azimuth99
Hello All,

Quick query. Need some clarification - bit confused,,,

Having sent my council the appeal letter within the 28 days, recorded delivery and signed for...

I have now received (as stated previous) a Charge Certificate (not a rejection of representation yet).

The Charge Certificate explains that payment has not been made within prescribed period OR there has been no challenge of the issue.

Question :- As I have not paid the fine (obviously), are the council suggesting they have NOT received my appeal, or has this Charge Certificate been churned out automatically by machine, as the money side of things is incomplete?

My real concern is that the council could be saying that no challenge was received i.e. my appeal letter. I still have PO delivery receipt etc.

Any insights welcome.

Azimuth99
bama
early CC means you win.

It is legal process and they have 'broken' it - impropriety.

some people believe that some councils do this early on purpose to avoid adjudication on matters that would diminish their revenue streams such as unlawful markings crap TROs etc.
emanresu
The stages are

1. PCN served
2. Informal Appeal during discount period
3. Notice to Owner (NTO)
4. Formal Appeal to NTO
5. Notice of Rejection (NoR) with the TPT Appeal docs attached if you wish to go to TPT or PATAS.

If no action at this stage by the Owner then its a Charge Certificate.

In your case the missing of Stage 5 is a "win" for you but to get there you need to go into a different set of paperwork. As Bama says, LA's make "mistakes" at this point to keep appeals out of TPT/PATAS that may have an effect of other PCNs issued. In your case there may be a number of PCNs issued for this bay that they want to keep quiet about.

Anyway the new sequence will be

6. Charge Cert - which you have
7. Order for Recovery (OfR) -
8. Statutory Declaration.
9. Back to NTO Stage - see Stage 3 above.

So what you have to do is to wait for (7) the OfR and make a Statutory Declaration. You can do this at your local Court and send it back. The Council will then / should then set it back to the NTO stage.

TAKE CARE: Councils play games with this process so you need to make sure you watch for the OfR and get it back into the system. Failure to do this will have bailiffs trying to get money from you.

These stupid games by the Council must have an effect on people buckling under the system, as they do it so often. There is no penalty against them for their underhanded behaviour and a lot of aggravation for you and others.

Azimuth99
Good grief! Thank you @bama & @emanresu.

I had no idea things got so, umm, machevellian! How dumb am I?

Thank you for the full explanation. Very kind. Now I know where I am.

I think I see what you mean about 'deliberate'. I remember one of the earlier posts to this thread, where someone said councils try to suppress or avoid the independant appeal stage, as previous PCN's come under scrutiny as well.

Heaven's! If it's true - that's a lot of disabled drivers, like me, getting stung for little reason. Depressing....

Azimuth99
Azimuth99
Hello All,

Still no show for the OfR - that's almost two months now since the Charge Certificate arrived, and non-reply to my final appeal.

Can anyone advise me whether this is normal/strange/common etc?

Azimuth99
bama
Check with the TEC is case it has 'gone missing'
Azimuth99
Thanks @bama

Just phoned the TEC.

They say the PCN Number has NOT been registered with them yet.

Azimuth99
eddy556
Really?? They sent a fake CC in order to scare you? I think we need to see the charge certificate.
bama
AIUI the OfR is optional. it costs them a fiver, many councils trying to save on the fiver.
Doesn't mean the CC is a fake

Always worth a periodic check with the TEC after a CC is sent IMO
Azimuth99
Thank you @eddy556 & @bama

I doubt the CC is fake too. Just seems the process is being 'dragged' out.

Anyway, I'll scan the CC for you. Give me a few hours. Scanner in the attic. Gotta hook it up.

I'll phone the TEC from time to time, as suggested, but as the operator said 'Nothing on our system for that PCN. Nothing registered.'

Guess I'll have to wait.......

Azimuth99
Azimuth99
QUICK UPDATE. Happy New Year to all.

No action yet by the council, and that is now a year since original issue of fine.

I see I promised a photocopy before, and didn't follow through. My apologies to everyone.

May I ask if there is a Statute Of Limitations on these things? Can I assume this is over? If so, do I ask a moderator to close and archive the thread?

Not sure of protocol here.

Azimuth99
bama
looks like they just ran away.

but keep all the papers safe - some 'bright spark' at the council may try to rebirth it to gain revenue for the council
(and try to keep his job).
If they do you can nail them easily.
Enceladus
Can you just confirm that you have not changed address between now and the date of issue of the original PCN?
Azimuth99
@bama. Thank you for that. I WILL keep all the documents (just in case).

@Enceladus. Yes, I confirm I have NOT changed address since the first PCN issue.

Az99
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.