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Orbitfish
Having browsed the posts on this forum I found that an unexpected Xmas present of a £100 PCN from Bexley Council may not have been executed properly.

Besides that fact that I stopped for seconds to allow my elderly mother to post a letter, beside the fact that the camera car was using the only parking space close to the post box and beside the fact that they only had visible notices facing oncoming traffic, i.e not for my direction of travel!

The PCN (below) shows different dates for the date of posting and the date of notice.
hcandersen yesterday wrote this in another post about the same thing from the same council...

1. I have looked on the guidance notes which say for a posted ticket, the date of issue and date of posting must be the same ... why is this and if they are different, is this grounds for appealing the ticket.

The council have made a mistake and the PCN/NtO is unenforceable.

The regs state that:

2. A regulation 10 penalty charge notice, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(4) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, must state—
(a) the date of the notice, which must be the date on which it is posted;


My questions are:
a) do I claim an invalid traffic Order or procedural impropriety
b) where are these regulations, because I couldn't find it anywhere on the Council's website or in the Traffic management Act 2004?


TIA for your time and effort in helping me sort this.

The notice in question:
buttonpusher
Please put the reverse of the ticket up as well.
southpaw82
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007, Reg. 19

QUOTE
(2) A notice to owner served under paragraph (1) must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under regulation 3(3) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—

(a) the date of the notice, which must be the date on which the notice is posted;


However, it's not straightforward that this is a "notice to owner" (despite it saying so!). Reg 19 says that a notice to owner may be served when

QUOTE
(1) Subject to regulation 20, where—

(a) a penalty charge notice has been served with respect to a vehicle under regulation 9; and

(b) the period of 28 days specified in the penalty charge notice as the period within which the penalty charge is to be paid has expired without that charge being paid,

the enforcement authority concerned may serve a notice ( “a notice to owner”) on the person who appears to them to have been the owner of the vehicle when the alleged contravention occurred.


It is arguable that what you have is properly a penalty charge notice under Reg 10 and not a notice to owner under Reg 19 and as such Reg 19(2)(a) does not apply to it. I've no idea which way an adjudicator would go on that argument so it's up to you whether you want to try it or not.

They do however appear to have a fettered discretion in their paragraph in italics about re-offering the discount period. They say they will never do so because the statutory scheme doesn't allow it. In reality, they have an absolute discretion to accept a lower amount (or no amount) at any time. Thus, their discretion is both fettered and improperly formulated due to them falling into an error of law.
Orbitfish
Unfortunately, it's gone...somewhere???
Can't lay my hands on it now, but it did not appear to contain anything different to those posted in other threads.
Just a bog standard CPN 47J.

Anyway, I've sent the cheque off, along with a Representation/Appeal based on 7) improprietry on the behalf of the council namely...dates differing.
Maybe you're right. Still, I'll get a refund or the unexpected Xmas present of £50 removed from my account BangHead.gif
I also tried:
Only one video surveillance notice facing the other way
and:
camera car occupied only feasible space for the post box that wasn't either a droppped footway or a bus stand.

Either way we'll see.

Can't help feeling it's purely a form of revenue for them. angryfire.gif
southpaw82
QUOTE (Orbitfish @ Fri, 15 Jan 2010 - 15:14) *
Anyway, I've sent the cheque off, along with a Representation/Appeal based on 7) improprietry on the behalf of the council namely...dates differring.


Cheque?
hcandersen
The notice in question:

I note southpaw’s caution in this matter, but this is a Regulation 10 Penalty Charge Notice. Service by post of Reg 9 PCNs is limited to prescribed events - CEO was either prevented from serving PCN or driver left scene while CEO was in process of producing the PCN, neither of which applies here. This PCN was issued by virtue of the use of a prescribed device and therefore is Reg 10. This is supported by the repeated reference to it being a PCN and NtO and the fact that the statutory discount period is 21 days which only applies to Reg 10.

The issue date must be the same as posting date and it looks like Bexley have a systemic problem.

Your representation should state these straightforward points, with reference to the particular sections of the regs to make it easy for them.

HCA
southpaw82
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 15 Jan 2010 - 15:18) *
The issue date must be the same as posting date and it looks like Bexley have a systemic problem.


I agree, that probably was Parliament's intention - but where in the regulations does it say that?
J_Edgar
Same as the other thread.

What is a "period beginning with 21 days,"?

That makes no logical sense to me.
dave-o
QUOTE (Orbitfish @ Fri, 15 Jan 2010 - 15:14) *
Anyway, I've sent the cheque off, along with a Representation/Appeal based on 7) improprietry on the behalf of the council ...........................Still, I'll get a refund or the unexpected Xmas present of £50 removed from my account BangHead.gif



If you really sent them money then a) you will never see it again and b) they will close your case.

Why did you do that? Get that cheque stopped ASAP!
Orbitfish
Basically the reverse of the PCN says:
'If your representation is accepted a Notice of Acceptance will be sent and a refund of any monies paid will be made'

Perhaps I'm just too trusting/gullible? sad.gif

If I stop the cheque and do not get a Notice of Acceptance then I'll have to pay £150 not just £50 or so it seems 'cos I can't see them sorting it out in time for me to get my payment there within 28 days of the notice to owner date unsure.gif
Thouhgts, ideas, opinions please
J_Edgar
QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Fri, 15 Jan 2010 - 15:59) *
Same as the other thread.

What is a "period beginning with 21 days,"?

That makes no logical sense to me.


QUOTE (J_Edgar @ Thu, 14 Jan 2010 - 21:14) *
"If the penalty charge is paid not later than the last day of the period beginning with 21 days, from the date of this Notice was served, the penalty charge will be reduced by 50% to £50."

That sentence is utter grammatical bollox and does not convey to the reader the intended meaning.


Ok, I've been obsessing about this and now have an opinion on what it means to me. I am not really concerned whether it is an appeal point or not I just have a real issue with the the way they have phrased the discount period.


This is how it reads to me and I believe it extends the discounted period to 22 days.

period beginning with 1 day = is 1 day
1 day from today is tomorrow = 2 days

period beginning with 21 days = 21 days
therefore 21 days, from the date of this Notice was served = 22 days

It to me is basically the same as saying within 21 days of service.

Anyone else read it the same?
hcandersen
I agree, that probably was Parliament's intention - but where in the regulations does it say that?

Should be at SI 2007 (3483) , Schedule 1, para. 2.

Contents of a regulation 10 penalty charge notice
2. A regulation 10 penalty charge notice, in addition to the matters required to be included in it by regulation 3(4) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, must state—
(a) the date of the notice, which must be the date on which it is posted;

The issue of 21 days v 14 days is at para. 3:

3. In paragraph 2 for the purposes of subparagraph (e) the “applicable date” is—
(a)
in the case of a penalty charge notice served by virtue of regulation 10(1)(a)(on the basis of a record produced by an approved device), the last day of the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which the notice was served;
(b) in any other case, the last day of the period of 14 days beginning with that date.

HCA
southpaw82
Thank you - saves me looking for it.
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