Does anyone have any real data on this (pros and cons)......have tried google and nothing really comes up

Its a con.

Kias are about the only kinda car its good for. Citroens are the same price with or without the scrappage scheme coz its the retailors RRP that matters when the scrappage scheme is being used, but they used to offer cashback on cars to the tune of upto £3000. Meaning the slightly more expensive citroens are not worth thinking about ATM.

Came across the statistic that it cost the UK taxpayer £7000 for every British built car that was sold as part of the scrappage.

Am I alone in resenting that I've paid for the 09 plated 4x4 that just carved up my 15 year-old Mondeo ?

Also did some calculations on the revenue that the Government claims to result from the extra sales. At least half of it is swallowed up by the scrappage subsidy and the losses on VAT and New Car Tax that result from the lower price.

This scheme is not in the interests of consumers. Its purely to keep thousands of car manufacturer employeees in a job, which is fair enough, but don't be tricked into what appears to be a good deal.

Its just that your allowed no other discounts with it. So the 2k is off the MRRP. I priced it up like this

Citroen C4 1.6HDi 16V VTR Plus (110bhp) EGS 3d MRRP is £16895. Citroen in February 2006 had £3200 cashback on the car, plus whatever trade in you had.
Today, they sell the car in the scrappage scheme at £14895, as they are not allowed to do the scrappage deal as well as another special offer.

So this makes it more expensive to buy most new cars.

Only works on really cheap cars like Kias, Hyundis, Protons.... hence the massive increase in numbers of these cars.

Best cars to buy right now are nearly new cars- they are heavily discounted I've noticed, possibly because people are choosing to buy new cars with the scrappage deal, and because very few people want to change car in the recession!

No you miss understand me I have no intention of swapping any of my old girls for a new one What I really want are figures on say the carbon foot print of the cost of an old girl from manufactor and maintanice against the manufacor and maintance of say these new pirius type thingy's


Ie I want proof that keeping old girls on the road is way better for the enviorment than scrapping them and replacing them with a car that uses batteries that tak a 1000 yrs to be got rid off

There were some figures around from a few years ago that compared the energy used to construct a car with the energy consumed to drive it for 100 000 miles.

As I recall, the numbers were very similar. Construction materials/methods and recycling may have shifted the equation slightly but not that much.

In my experience, the extra weight and higher average speed of a modern car has cancelled out any fuel savings and I don't find mid-range cars to any more economical than vehicles such a Mk2 Cortina or 1850 Dolomite that I used to drive.

The real progress, of course, is emissions and reliability. Nowadays, I expect to drive from the Midlands to Cornwall without the need to spend a weekend preparing the car.

Slightly off topic, but I am amazed at how poorly this scheme has been thought out and administered.

I have a Grand Voyager which I am planning on scrapping under the scheme, however it was registered 01/03/2000, and so missed out by one day if classed as a car. However if classed as a van then it qualifies (more than 8 yrs).

The dealer I called said it doesnt qualify, and he knows everything about the scheme having scprapped in excess of 60 cars. Once I pointed out that vans only need be 8 yrs old (which he didnt know) I decided to go straight to the horses mouth.

Currently waiting on their decision, biggest factor in my favour is that the seat belt anchorage points are fixed to the seats, so when the seats are removed (2 min job) so are the anchorage points, and thus it becomes a van. Shall await their decision with baited breath. It will make a mockery if refused, seeing as its a 3.3L petrol gas guzzler.

Would need to reregister it as a van with the DVLA though would you not? May not be worth all the hastle if you can just find a decent deal on a car (ideally nearly new), as the scrappage price is from the MRRP, and once the scrappage schemes over the manufactuerers will have to make big discounts in order to entise people to continue buying new cars.

When I had a company van and was subject to a check by HMRC the two questions asked were does it have rear seat and does it have rear windows.

@ Glasgow Bhoy, I would prefer a new car as it is for the other half, so a comprehensive warranty is important due to me working away. The manufacturer of the car is one of the few who didn't increase the price prior to scrappage.

@P91, I have noticed that every gov dept seems to class the vehicles slightly different, and don't have a definitive description. However this vehicle is manufactured for both the carriage of passengers AND the carriage of goods, but try explaining that to a gov drone, if it doesn't fit neatly within their pigeon holes they will try to force it in lol

What really grips me about the scrappage scheme is that my 12 year old pug 306 diesel runs on Bio diesel, the MOT test for emissions states it produces 0.05 ppm (the fail point is 1.5 ppm) and so my old 'banger' is far cleaner than ANY new car.

Why do I have to pay more road tax on my car than on my 55 plate Sprinter (that can't use bio and does about 30mpg)?

Total con!

As for the rest of the scrappage, it only seems to be cheap foreign cars being purchased. That is doing begger all for the British Motor industry.


Grrrrr!

Its keeping car plants in the Uk where the cars are put together open
Its keeping car salesmen in jobs
Its helping money change hands in the country

But yeah it helps other economies as well as our own.

Pre-recession, we were exporting more cars than EVER before (even when we did have UK manufacturers), due to the Japanese companies amongst others setting up plants here. The car economy in this country is huge, possibily about the 6th biggest economy within the country.

I do like the sound of runnin a car on bio diesel. I had a 106 1.5D that I wanted to try bio diesel with but never got a chance How much cheaper is it to use? Ive got a Xsara HDi now, so not sure about veg oil/bio diesel coz the engine seems so much more complicated than in the old xsara/za/306 1.9d.

Interesting...

I work for a company who designs and produces engine management systems for various vehicles, in the 18 years i've worked for them, this is the quietest i've ever known it, in fact for the first time in the history of our company, this is the FIRST year we've had to implement a four day week.

You might be correct in saying that there are still car plants in this country, but ask yourself where they are sourcing the 1000's of individual components and sub assemblies from which GO INTO those vehicles. A car sales showroom and a punter handing over his cash is only a minor part of the Automotive industry, which economy is benefiting from the Lions Share of this additional business?, namely the 100's of other industries involved with designing, suppling parts and manufacturing that vehicle?.

Examine any VW / SEAT as one example and you'll probably see 'Made in Spain' stamped over virtually every plastic panel and various other components throughout the vehicle. So thats a large part of that business which isn't residing in the UK. What about engines?, ABS Brakes, where is the metal shell coming from, after all, did we once not have an enviable steel industry?. I bet its not UK sourced metal in these body shells!.

When I first started working in this industry, a large percentage of Automotive components were still produced by smaller UK companies - Those family run companies, which for generations had passed from Father to Son and whose whole structure had been formed around serving the car industry. Companies like Metal Bashers, Plastic Moulders, Upholsterers, Wiring loom manufacturers, etc etc which at the time, thrived thanks to the order books from the 'local' Car Plants.

Nowadays, more and more companies are 'doing a Dyson' and subbing out this work to the Far East and Eastern Europe, those traditional medium sized family firms have long sinced collapsed with their workforces, joining the UK's only remaining growth industry - Unemployment.

So basically, all that this scrappage scheme does, is to make the car manufacturers take a good hard look at their expenditure, perhaps call their purchasing managers into a meeting to see where any costs (to them) of this scheme can be recouped, in other words it makes them more likely to look and see where savings can be made and largely this means where the existing supply chain can be changed. moved abroad or cut out of the equation.

Unfortunately, Eastern Europe and the Far East can manufacture and supply an entire populated and programmed electronic module for roughly the same price as we source the bare PCB from a UK supplier. So if we lose the business from our customer, our UK based PCB supplier also loses our order book as does their materials supplier and so on - a Domino effect of lost orders which Ultimately could eventually cost as many, if not more jobs as you have 'saved' within the car plant.

So you secure the Jobs in the car plant perhaps, but what about those other 100's of jobs in the UK in the supply chain who are at risk of losing their Jobs if the manufacturers decide to sub contract more sub assemblies, chassis and electronics to cheaper labour based countries??

As somebody working for a third tier automotive supplier, this scrappage scheme has done nothing to secure my job! - FACT

But thats okay, because when I do eventually get made redundant, I should have no difficulty in getting a Job as a car salesman eh?.

Its also like asking what the changeover to Digital TV has done to secure and boost the UK economy?. Whilst the local TV shop and aerial fitter may have done well out of it, how many of you have UK designed and built TV sets?.







The Government won't give subsidies on cars running biodiesel because there is no absolute vehicle conversion process involved and nothing to prove that the car can ONLY run on biodiesel. After all, what would stop you from claiming a subsidy by driving to the test station on Biodiesel for the tax exemption / reduction, and then filling it up with fossil diesel at the first opportunity?. If any subsidy was offered then the car would have to be modified so that it would run on nothing BUT biodiesel and currently I don't think that such a thing exists?. So whilst I would agree 100% with your point, its not going to workable.

Yes, Britain does price itself out of the market in a ridiculous fashion. However it is a fact the even in the days when we had the likes of BL in Britain, we were not exporting the number of cars which we were during the peaks of 2006/2007. This is due to Honda, Nissan, Vauxhall etc. assembling their cars here and exporting them. You say its the quietest its ever been. Its a recession, thats a kinda obv thing your stating. Its unfortunate, and after the recession I can't see exports reaching the same levels as before as Nissan moves the Micras assembly for the next model to India. I see many other models being moved there, like you say due to price.

Fact; the scrappage scheme has secured some jobs. I accept yours is not one of them, and on talking to a mechanic it sounds like there are more people in this industry who are bitter about the scheme than like it! Its not helping small indipendant garages as new cars tend to be serviced at big garages where they are bought (I mean a manufacturer franchise). I'm not a fan coz I buy cars that are a few years old- late 90's early 00's, and they seem to be scarce just now coz the public think they are getting a great deal with the scrappage scheme, which frankly they are not.

We have a 11 year old fiesta sitting in the drive. It was meant for me when I started driving but its not my kinda car (a 1.0.. no thankyou) and so its sat for nearly 2 years being kept for my sister. My dad was looking at buying a new C30R, and looked into just trading in the fiesta for the scrappage deal. However looking at the figures, it was not worth it. There was a one month old pre-reg sitting on the forecourt with £4k off the price- much better than the £2k off by trading in the old banger. Shows that the scrappage deal has made buying new cars even more expensive than ever before, but buyer ignorance has made buyers believe they are getting an amazing deal.

Don't become a car salesman. They can be pretty annoying, especially when your just trying to go into the service dept. in a garage and they pounce on you because you dared glance over at a car... "ahh we noticed you looking at the new C2, would you be interesting in looking at figures. we noticed you have a car to trade in. we can give you a good price on that". shows they really are bored coz the i hadnt looked at the car, it was simply in my line of sight whilst I was standing waiting on the service people. That said, parks at the whirlies in east kilbride have targets of shifting 500 new cars a month atm, plus used cars, so they are clearly optimistic about the way people are buying cars now.

I still think that the UK is missing out on the Lions share of any profit / boost which these ideas are 'supposed' to create.

Taking Televisions and the forced changeover to digital, and also this scrappage scheme as two recent examples. In both cases some labour element has been boosted, for example those fitting aerials and those assembling and selling cars. Yes, its a move in the right direction, but in the grand scale of things its very little in real terms in relation to the aspect of UK Manufacturing. Whilst you may find that buying a new TV keeps the one man aerial company in business, those hundreds of production line jobs at Fidelity, Ferguson, Amstrad and other UK TV Manufacturers went decades ago, and I haven't seen many TV Assembly plants being built in relation to the digital fiasco, neither have I seen many new car plants springing up in relation to the scrappage scheme. Have you?.

So surely the BULK of the profit from these industries is actually in the design and manufacturing of these products? is that not where the biggest money and profit margin lies? and sadly the bulk of that is not investment in the UK nor helping UK companies, these TV are still being made by several hundred people in a Factory in Korea. Poland or China as opposed to Sunderland, Nottingham and Wolverhampton - as are most car parts and assembly.

In most cases the labour has been retained, but all they are doing is assembling a 'kit' manufactured in other countries.

This was also highlighted on the 'Tonight' program a few weeks ago which covered this angle. They interviewed a key person within a car manufacturing plant abroad and asked him what parts of the car (I think it was a Golf) were made / exported from the UK.

After a period of silence & thought, the guy eventually mentioned that he thought that the Tyres were bought from the UK.

Well whoopee do!, when you buy this model under the scrappage scheme, then you help to keep one UK tyre manufacturer in business. What about the several thousand other components in this vehicle? where are they manufactured?, obviously not in the UK, so how exactly is encouraging people to buy new cars securing the long term future of UK manufacturing then?, if only a tiny fraction of a percentage of a very popular car is actually being made in the UK?. If there is hardly anything in the car being made in the UK right from the start, then there is no possible way that it can be boosting our manufacturing output.

Perhaps those tempted to buy a new car under this scheme should perhaps be encouraged to visit the dealer of their chosen model and make purchase a proviso of being given a sheet stating which components are made and assembled in the UK and so they can see how much of our manufacturing is being saved by this scheme and their purchase. I suspect the results would be one hell of an eye opener.

Basically the other reason that we retain some of this manufacturing and assembly within the UK, is because our labour rates are still significantly less than those in other countries. Not the Far East / Eastern Europe obviously, but compared to other European countries our workforce earn less per hour than their European counterparts. So thats 'okay' is it?.



It's not about pricing ourselves out of the market. Compared to some manufacturers elsewhere in the world, UK products are still reasonably priced and our minimum wage low. However to compete with the Far East we would have to work for about £15 a week!. Would you be willing to work for that?

Incidentally, in my job I also have not had a pay review this year, I earn less than £14k / year and have no pension or sick pay. Hardly a glowing accolaide for UK Manufacturing is it? and I don't consider my employer to be spending ridiculously however its still preferable to Unemployment. I wonder if the Car Manufacturing / Assembly Industry in Germany, (for example) is so hard done too?. I honestly can't see those working at Bosch, Hella, Tyco, BMW, Mercedes etc etc working under those terms!.

Most of the cost levied to manufacturing in this country comes down to the fact that we are taxed to the hilt and there is very little incentive out there for getting people to start their own companies along with few proper apprenticeships for them to gain a trade in order to start a business in the first place!.

So the OP asked if anybody from inside the industry, could comment on the situation. So in reply, I can speak from experience on the manufacturing aspect of Automotive components and say that this scrappage scheme has done nothing to boost our workload (we wouldn't be on short time if it had), nor has it done anything to secure our jobs (or our confidence) or boost our turnover.

This scrappage scheme may well have been good intentioned, but you can't polish a turd, and that pretty much sums up the state of manufacturing and level of investment into new industry here.

Hmmmmmmmm No one has really answered what I asked

I dont even think the government would know the answer . uve just gave an excuse for a debate over the effectivenes of the scheme

If that were the case then how come petrol cars that can run on gas get subsidies? they are dual fuel vehicles, the same as any car that can run on Biodiesel or like mine, diesel, biodiesel, or straight veg oil.


To quote you, whats to stop a dual fuel car get it's mot or whatever, and then run for the rest of the year on petrol? it's still exempt from the congestion tax as well as probably many other benefits, I haven't looked up exactly what they get though so I cant say what ones they get.

probably down to the fact that the car owner has paid a huge sum of money in order to convert the vehicle. Perhaps the Government are happy with the VAT and TAX revenue which this conversion equipment purchase produces?. Perhaps they also assume that if anybody pays £600 - £2000 for an LPG conversion then they are probably more likely to run it on LPG at every possible opportunity?. I don't know about you, but if I was going to pay ££££££ for something, I tend to use it.

Whilst on the flip side, anybody can go out and buy a Xantia, Omega and even a lot of newer diesels and run it on Biodiesel with no modifications - ie no 'contribution' to the treasury and provided its not SVO - no actual physical modifications to the car either .

Besides, to say that biodiesel users do not get subsidies is incorrect isn't it?. As a private biodiesel producer you will already know that you can make upto 2500 litres of biodiesel legally, and absolutely free of any tax and duty, which is a big subsidy compared to several years ago when you had to inform the HMCE and pay duty on all of the fuel that you made!.

So was the removal of this duty requirement not a subsidy on biodiesel and quite a generous one at that.

So the removal of duty on privately produced biodiesel is quite a subsidy is it not? and in addition you want free / reduced road tax too??

Or would you prefer it, if the Government gave you a reduction of road tax, but re-established duty on home produced biodiesel?. Choose wisely - with our Government you only get one wish!

As a biodiesel user myself previously, I take onboard your point but personally I would be happy to make my own biodiesel for a fraction of the cost of dino in return for not paying duty on it, after all the savings made on fuel would probably pay my VFD several times over.

The VFD on the car which I ran on Biodiesel was £140 year, home produced, duty free biodiesel can be made for as little as 25p - 30p per litre?. Basically, it wouldn't take many tankfuls of biodiesel to pay that £140 back.

Personally, I think thats already a good deal already for Biodiesel users, at least those who make it themselves.

I've just spent a day at a seminar on Electric Vehicles.

Leaving aside the arguments about the merits (and lack of them), what's became clear is that in comparison to France, Germany, Japan, Scandinavia there is no government support for the technology or infrastructure.

This means that, except for some work at MIRA on safety, GB will have no influence on the standardisation of the systems and components such as connectors. Most of the present UK suppliers into the business are young and small with no experience of supplying into the auto industry.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but no way is it cleaner than a new car, modern emissions levels (remember its measured on a rolling road at speeds upto 120kph) are about 1/4 what yours had to achieve when new, bio-Diesel may improve 'well to wheel' CO2 but has no effect on HC/NOx and pm.

Gas fueled cars don't get subsidies anymore eithe, that was finished back in about 2003 which is why Vauxhall and Ford stopped selling OE LPG/CNG cars.

Scrappage scheme, don't get me started though, what a waste of money, no wonder we are the last of the G20 still in recession!

Simon

Boiler scrappage scheme here now too.

My moneys on a TV scrappage scheme coming soonish

Given what's on TV can I get some cash for scrapping my TV and NOT getting another?..................

Except when AFC are on and I can't get a ticket!! (No, GB....not Arbroath!)