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maddogsx
I got a fair honest to goodness pull on Saturday afternoon for 42 in a 30. Hands up no excuses i was trying to catch a train to go for a few beers with mates in glasgow.
I was in my track car which is road legal...

After the usual round the car look and the PNC check coming back stating car insured etc driver known not wanted they proceed to question the rollcage, harnesses, fire system, seats etc as to whether they are declared on my policy.
One of them states he'll be issuing me with a producer (HORT/1) formas he wants to see my policy schedule for himself.

I always insure my cars over the internet and as such not all companies issue posted documentation, but e-mail PDF files for you to print. On telling this to plod he say's well you'll need to print it and bring it in.

Do i need to do this, or is it time for lawyer and complaint? Not the first time recently i've ahd grief from our local traffic mob, but it's the first time since lic back (over 1 year) after being banned i've broken the law by speeding.

I live in Scotland in case this has any bearing on the case.
Gan
You have a clearly modified car. Some companies will count a change of wheels as a mod to be declared.
The officer probably suspects that you've also made some performance changes that would invalidate your policy.

You've no complaint for the pull and the policy is one of the documents needed on an HORT/1. Failure to produce within the 7 days is an offence even if your insurance is valid.
Mr Curiosity
As said above, all modifications need to be declared to your insurance company. That includes EVERYTHING. Failure to do so can result in said insurance company failing to pay out or cover you in the event of an accident or pull.
jobo
sorry but your getting dodgy advice

though there partial right, mods need to be notified, but not doing so should not invalidate your 3rd party cover, which is the legal min,

if you have a hort to produce cert of insurance, do so at the desk at an odd time of the day, then your met you legal reqs, then leave them to it

in the mean time conform with the insurance comp what your status is
Gan
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 14:10) *
sorry but your getting dodgy advice

though there partial right, mods need to be notified, but not doing so should not invalidate your 3rd party cover, which is the legal min,

if you have a hort to produce cert of insurance, do so at the desk at an odd time of the day, then your met you legal reqs, then leave them to it

in the mean time conform with the insurance comp what your status is

Hello Jobo. Agree that the insurance company still has RTA liability to Third Parties but isn't the OP still committing an offence if the vehicle isn't in accordance with the terms of the certificate ?
jobo
what offence ???

obtaining insurance under false pretences or similar ???

bugger to prove,that he just didnt hit the wrong button on meerkat ???
maddogsx
I'm not disputing the fact they don't know all the mod's on the car, but I am disputing or querying as to whether they can force me to go and buy a printer, print off the relevant doc's from my ins co and hand them over, especially as they have already proved the car to be insured, taxed and MOT'd. Which is effectively what they are doing. I carry in my wallet my policy no, phone number and name of broker and co insured with.

Insurance now know about the fire system and bigger brakes (which they deemed a bigger risk than cage and seats wacko.gif )
Mortimer
I'm curious to know what insurance company has not required signed copies of the documentation for their records? Every policy I have ever arranged either in person, on the phone or online has resulted in me receiving TWO copies of the policy schedule and certificate, one of which was to be signed and returned to the insurer.
jobo
you have to produce your cert of insurance

not the policy schedule, if they want that they can contact them themselves

nor do you have to surrender them at the station

they want you for no insurance, which they have no chance of winning in court, upto you if you want to play silly with them

go and produce in another county, on some pretext or another
maddogsx
QUOTE (Mortimer @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 16:11) *
I'm curious to know what insurance company has not required signed copies of the documentation for their records? Every policy I have ever arranged either in person, on the phone or online has resulted in me receiving TWO copies of the policy schedule and certificate, one of which was to be signed and returned to the insurer.


Car insured through 1st Central, My Evo and 200sx were insured through swinton and neither of them req me to sign and return anything. All i've ever had to do is send copy or original of my Driv Lic.

QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 16:11) *
you have to produce your cert of insurance

not the policy schedule, if they want that they can contact them themselves

nor do you have to surrender them at the station

they want you for no insurance, which they have no chance of winning in court, upto you if you want to play silly with them

go and produce in another county, on some pretext or another



So it isn't unreasonable for them to ask me to effectively buy a printer and print off a policy certificate. I guess it's a 4am before i go to work job then!
Mortimer
Do you not know anyone who has a printer?

Local library, internet cafe?

Even a printer at work?
jobo
to be honest e certs are very iffy in law any way ???

C.T.C
QUOTE (maddogsx @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 16:06) *
I'm not disputing the fact they don't know all the mod's on the car,


Mine is online too, just had a look at the small print and it says this under disclosure (can't cut-n-paste as it's on Adobe)....

QUOTE
Any failure to disclose facts material to the insurance or any inaccuracies in your answers may invalidate cover in part or in whole. You are reminded that is an offence under the Road Traffic Act to make any false statement or withhold any relevent information


So never mind the printer, if the Cop knows this and checks with your insurance company as to what Mods you had disclosed at the time of the stop, a £30 printer from Tesco may be the least of your worries....
jobo
and what offence do you think it is ???????????????
Mortimer
QUOTE (C.T.C @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 17:06) *
(can't cut-n-paste as it's on Adobe)....


You can actually. Select the Cut'n'Paste tool in Adobe Reader and then Cut'n'Paste to your hearts content.

PDF documents are not entirely secure and non-editable either. Plenty of software out that that can be used to open PDFs and change them.
cshm37
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 18:20) *
and what offence do you think it is ???????????????


Fraud Act 2006 (misrepresentation)

also* no insurance!
ShootingBarners
QUOTE
You can actually. Select the Cut'n'Paste tool in Adobe Reader and then Cut'n'Paste to your hearts content.


That depends on whether the pdf is locked. I have had quite a bit of experience using Adobe products, but had no luck when I wanted to copy large chunks out of the powerboat racing rules and regulations, ended up having to resort to Print Screen. I would imagine a legal document like an insurance policy would also be locked.
captain swoop
QUOTE (ShootingBarners @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 22:15) *
QUOTE
You can actually. Select the Cut'n'Paste tool in Adobe Reader and then Cut'n'Paste to your hearts content.


That depends on whether the pdf is locked. I have had quite a bit of experience using Adobe products, but had no luck when I wanted to copy large chunks out of the powerboat racing rules and regulations, ended up having to resort to Print Screen. I would imagine a legal document like an insurance policy would also be locked.



There are PDF editors available that would let you modify a PDF.
Mortimer
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 00:10) *
QUOTE (ShootingBarners @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 22:15) *
QUOTE
You can actually. Select the Cut'n'Paste tool in Adobe Reader and then Cut'n'Paste to your hearts content.


That depends on whether the pdf is locked. I have had quite a bit of experience using Adobe products, but had no luck when I wanted to copy large chunks out of the powerboat racing rules and regulations, ended up having to resort to Print Screen. I would imagine a legal document like an insurance policy would also be locked.



There are PDF editors available that would let you modify a PDF.


There are online web tools that unlock them too.
glasgow_bhoy
Is this thread about online PDF editors?


Anyway, youve got the 3rd party element of your insurnace so you will satisfy the cops.
Take the producer and the docs at the obscure time of night, and they will check them over. How wil the desk seargant (or whoever checks the docs) know your car is modded? They haven't seen it.

Just produce and you'll have nothing to worry about
Ferret
Why not buy a cheap USB stick. put the document on there and hand that over to the desk.....do you legally have to produce a paper copy?
jobo
QUOTE (Ferret @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 10:49) *
Why not buy a cheap USB stick. put the document on there and hand that over to the desk.....do you legally have to produce a paper copy?



yes
Pete D
Go to the library use their net and download the insurance certificate.
With the type of mods you have a normal internet/highstreet provider would not insure you. People like Andrian Flux provide such cover but for the moment just get the certificate and present it at the station. I would not park the car near or in the station if I were you. Pete D
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (Pete D @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 13:47) *
Go to the library use their net and download the insurance certificate.
With the type of mods you have a normal internet/highstreet provider would not insure you. People like Andrian Flux provide such cover but for the moment just get the certificate and present it at the station. I would not park the car near or in the station if I were you. Pete D



Exactly!

Get a mate to give you a lift and leave your car a few miles away. You threrefore succesfully produce and if the police wanna see the car then they can go n find it.

And update your insurance!
C.T.C
But surely the Cop is gonna get a copy of the HO/RT2 as the issuing officer.

All he has to do is phone up and ask what Mods are notified. And then the insurance company can bring up the OP's file and say X, Y + Z, oh and for some reason on this date (after he was stopped) he added A, B + C mods.

The Cop might be daft, but probably not that daft....

I still think this might be a no insurance. If your insurer discover you have made a false representation to them, they're gonna drop you like a stone.
Pete D
There was no mention that the HORT1 mentions and modifications, can the OP clarify. However he has to present the document of commit another offence. Pete D
jobo
Any failure to disclose facts material to the insurance or any inaccuracies in your answers may invalidate cover in part or in whole. You are reminded that is an offence under the Road Traffic Act to make any false statement or withhold any relevent information


QUOTE (cshm37 @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 21:41) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 29 Oct 2009 - 18:20) *
and what offence do you think it is ???????????????


Fraud Act 2006 (misrepresentation)



and how pray is that an offence under the RTA ????????????/
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (C.T.C @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:17) *
But surely the Cop is gonna get a copy of the HO/RT2 as the issuing officer.

All he has to do is phone up and ask what Mods are notified. And then the insurance company can bring up the OP's file and say X, Y + Z, oh and for some reason on this date (after he was stopped) he added A, B + C mods.

The Cop might be daft, but probably not that daft....

I still think this might be a no insurance. If your insurer discover you have made a false representation to them, they're gonna drop you like a stone.


No they still have 3rd party cover.

Worst case scenario; they produce, police check with insurer about mods. Police find out they still have 3rd party cover anyway so thats all fine.

In the meantime insuerers then contact OP about mods- they may get suspicious to have the cops calling them asking specifically about mods. They then discover the OP hasnt been entirely truthful about the mods and therefore cancel his insurance (unless he coughs up a considerable sum of money to cover the addtional premiums). If they cancel the insurance then he has to find insurance elsewhere, and delclare that hes had insurance cancelled/revoked to his new insurer, which heavily puts up the premiums, especially when they find out why.

OP your in no trouble with the law. Just your insurers possibly (which would be a civil matter)
C.T.C
QUOTE (jobo @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:24) *
and how pray is that an offence under the RTA ????????????/


Sec174 RTA 1988 covers making a false statement to obtain certain road traffic documents.

I take it a certificate of insurance would be covered by that....?
jobo
QUOTE (C.T.C @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:24) *
and how pray is that an offence under the RTA ????????????/


Sec174 RTA 1988 covers making a false statement to obtain certain road traffic documents.

I take it a certificate of insurance would be covered by that....?


have you got a link please ?
slushpuppy
Dont think the RTA is used any more. New fraud Act is used as cshm37 says. More serious than the Road Traffic Act.
jobo
QUOTE (slushpuppy @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 23:36) *
Dont think the RTA is used any more. New fraud Act is used as cshm37 says. More serious than the Road Traffic Act.


and you think forgetting to tell you insurance company that youve put fancy wheels on you focus

with have you convicted under the fraud act
do you ?
cshm37
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (C.T.C @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:17) *
But surely the Cop is gonna get a copy of the HO/RT2 as the issuing officer.

All he has to do is phone up and ask what Mods are notified. And then the insurance company can bring up the OP's file and say X, Y + Z, oh and for some reason on this date (after he was stopped) he added A, B + C mods.

The Cop might be daft, but probably not that daft....

I still think this might be a no insurance. If your insurer discover you have made a false representation to them, they're gonna drop you like a stone.


No they still have 3rd party cover.

Worst case scenario; they produce, police check with insurer about mods. Police find out they still have 3rd party cover anyway so thats all fine.

In the meantime insuerers then contact OP about mods- they may get suspicious to have the cops calling them asking specifically about mods. They then discover the OP hasnt been entirely truthful about the mods and therefore cancel his insurance (unless he coughs up a considerable sum of money to cover the addtional premiums). If they cancel the insurance then he has to find insurance elsewhere, and delclare that hes had insurance cancelled/revoked to his new insurer, which heavily puts up the premiums, especially when they find out why.

OP your in no trouble with the law. Just your insurers possibly (which would be a civil matter)


If you tell significant lies to your insurance company then you are not insured (even third party!).

That's it, end of.

Not only will you probably be prosecuted for no insurance, but nowadays you could end up prosecuted for fraud as well. Not t mention your car could be seized, and you may have difficulty getting insurance for the future.

Do not be fooled by all this 'still insured third party' ...it is not correct. sad.gif
jobo
what counts as a significant lie ??

if i tell them the car is standard, but in fact id taken ALL the brakes off it would that remove my 3rd party cover and be fraurd ????


are you just guessing or do you know what act actually apples ???????????????????????????????????????????????????
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (cshm37 @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (C.T.C @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:17) *
But surely the Cop is gonna get a copy of the HO/RT2 as the issuing officer.

All he has to do is phone up and ask what Mods are notified. And then the insurance company can bring up the OP's file and say X, Y + Z, oh and for some reason on this date (after he was stopped) he added A, B + C mods.

The Cop might be daft, but probably not that daft....

I still think this might be a no insurance. If your insurer discover you have made a false representation to them, they're gonna drop you like a stone.


No they still have 3rd party cover.

Worst case scenario; they produce, police check with insurer about mods. Police find out they still have 3rd party cover anyway so thats all fine.

In the meantime insuerers then contact OP about mods- they may get suspicious to have the cops calling them asking specifically about mods. They then discover the OP hasnt been entirely truthful about the mods and therefore cancel his insurance (unless he coughs up a considerable sum of money to cover the addtional premiums). If they cancel the insurance then he has to find insurance elsewhere, and delclare that hes had insurance cancelled/revoked to his new insurer, which heavily puts up the premiums, especially when they find out why.

OP your in no trouble with the law. Just your insurers possibly (which would be a civil matter)


If you tell significant lies to your insurance company then you are not insured (even third party!).

That's it, end of.

Not only will you probably be prosecuted for no insurance, but nowadays you could end up prosecuted for fraud as well. Not t mention your car could be seized, and you may have difficulty getting insurance for the future.

Do not be fooled by all this 'still insured third party' ...it is not correct. sad.gif


Insurers 3rd party liability is not discharged that easily

Provide a link showing you can be done for not declaring mods.

Its clearly a civil matter
cshm37
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:07) *
QUOTE (cshm37 @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (C.T.C @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:17) *
But surely the Cop is gonna get a copy of the HO/RT2 as the issuing officer.

All he has to do is phone up and ask what Mods are notified. And then the insurance company can bring up the OP's file and say X, Y + Z, oh and for some reason on this date (after he was stopped) he added A, B + C mods.

The Cop might be daft, but probably not that daft....

I still think this might be a no insurance. If your insurer discover you have made a false representation to them, they're gonna drop you like a stone.


No they still have 3rd party cover.

Worst case scenario; they produce, police check with insurer about mods. Police find out they still have 3rd party cover anyway so thats all fine.

In the meantime insuerers then contact OP about mods- they may get suspicious to have the cops calling them asking specifically about mods. They then discover the OP hasnt been entirely truthful about the mods and therefore cancel his insurance (unless he coughs up a considerable sum of money to cover the addtional premiums). If they cancel the insurance then he has to find insurance elsewhere, and delclare that hes had insurance cancelled/revoked to his new insurer, which heavily puts up the premiums, especially when they find out why.

OP your in no trouble with the law. Just your insurers possibly (which would be a civil matter)


If you tell significant lies to your insurance company then you are not insured (even third party!).

That's it, end of.

Not only will you probably be prosecuted for no insurance, but nowadays you could end up prosecuted for fraud as well. Not t mention your car could be seized, and you may have difficulty getting insurance for the future.

Do not be fooled by all this 'still insured third party' ...it is not correct. sad.gif


Insurers 3rd party liability is not discharged that easily

Provide a link showing you can be done for not declaring mods.

Its clearly a civil matter


Civil? LOL you clearly haven't either read or understood the broadly drafted Fraud Act 2006!

I accept that negating liability is not as simple as I have made it sound, but if an Insurer sniffs a rat, then they will simply refuse to pay.

For links, there are plenty on the IFB website or IFIG etc. Yes there will be some regarding 'mods'.

Anyone thinking that not declaring 'mods' is not fraud is simply fooling himself, and to give advise on here that it is 'Okay cos you are still third party insured' is downright dangerous!
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (cshm37 @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:21) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:07) *
QUOTE (cshm37 @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 12:04) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:42) *
QUOTE (C.T.C @ Fri, 30 Oct 2009 - 14:17) *
But surely the Cop is gonna get a copy of the HO/RT2 as the issuing officer.

All he has to do is phone up and ask what Mods are notified. And then the insurance company can bring up the OP's file and say X, Y + Z, oh and for some reason on this date (after he was stopped) he added A, B + C mods.

The Cop might be daft, but probably not that daft....

I still think this might be a no insurance. If your insurer discover you have made a false representation to them, they're gonna drop you like a stone.


No they still have 3rd party cover.

Worst case scenario; they produce, police check with insurer about mods. Police find out they still have 3rd party cover anyway so thats all fine.

In the meantime insuerers then contact OP about mods- they may get suspicious to have the cops calling them asking specifically about mods. They then discover the OP hasnt been entirely truthful about the mods and therefore cancel his insurance (unless he coughs up a considerable sum of money to cover the addtional premiums). If they cancel the insurance then he has to find insurance elsewhere, and delclare that hes had insurance cancelled/revoked to his new insurer, which heavily puts up the premiums, especially when they find out why.

OP your in no trouble with the law. Just your insurers possibly (which would be a civil matter)


If you tell significant lies to your insurance company then you are not insured (even third party!).

That's it, end of.

Not only will you probably be prosecuted for no insurance, but nowadays you could end up prosecuted for fraud as well. Not t mention your car could be seized, and you may have difficulty getting insurance for the future.

Do not be fooled by all this 'still insured third party' ...it is not correct. sad.gif


Insurers 3rd party liability is not discharged that easily

Provide a link showing you can be done for not declaring mods.

Its clearly a civil matter


Civil? LOL you clearly haven't either read or understood the broadly drafted Fraud Act 2006!

I accept that negating liability is not as simple as I have made it sound, but if an Insurer sniffs a rat, then they will simply refuse to pay.

For links, there are plenty on the IFB website or IFIG etc. Yes there will be some regarding 'mods'.

Anyone thinking that not declaring 'mods' is not fraud is simply fooling himself, and to give advise on here that it is 'Okay cos you are still third party insured' is downright dangerous!


I'm of the age of people whos gonna be modding their cars- most of my mates have puntos, 106's and sexos (and a mondeo huh.gif ) and many of them are modded. Several of them have had crashes and only one has experienced problems with his insurer- he hit somebody fully comp insured, and his car needed extensive repairs. He got the car back... minus all his mods (well they left his CD player in but his wheels, spoiler, cherrybomb) were all gone.

From what your saying, not telling an insurer about 3 points is a huge fraud. They are still gonna have to pay out the 3rd party claim.

Im not saying OK cos your still third party insurer, as its not ok. He will have problems aquiring insurance in future if he doenst declare them to his insurer and gets caught and has his insurance cancelled.

Tbh until the fraud act 2006 starts clamping down properly on credit card fraud, it will not be taken seriously.
Can you find me a case please where a person has been found guilty under the fraud act 2006 for not declaring mods? Coz I cant find any cases
cshm37
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:01) *
what counts as a significant lie ??

if i tell them the car is standard, but in fact id taken ALL the brakes off it would that remove my 3rd party cover and be fraurd ????


are you just guessing or do you know what act actually apples ???????????????????????????????????????????????????


Modify your car and tell the insurers it is standard, then yes according to the Fraud Act you would be guilty of an offence. The most difficult part wold be proving dishonesty, but I doubt that would be too difficult; if in the eyes of a reasonable and honest person, they would see it as dishonest to declare a 'modded' car as standard (which i suggest they would) then you are left with convincing the same jury that YOU did not believe it dishonest. I know which way I would put my money!

No I am not guessing.
jobo
well go on then prove your case then]# so me the provision in the fraurd act and any prosicutions which have resulted fr54om people modding their car


giving general and very inaccurate advice about something you think youve read IS dangerous

so put up or shut up
cshm37
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:32) *
well go on then prove your case then]# so me the provision in the fraurd act and any prosicutions which have resulted fr54om people modding their car


giving general and very inaccurate advice about something you think youve read IS dangerous

so put up or shut up


Ok you must be right! (or perhaps you can't find any is because you are suffering from Nelson's eye?)

I am not going to be your skivvy, just peruse through sites like the IFB or IFIG et al.

And before you say it, no it's not against your 'Ewman Rhights' for an insurer to refuse to pay on a suspect fraud claim! (just anticipating).
kwaks
Wow this is getting out of hand.

Ok, this is how it is. If you do not declare mods to an insurer, and subsequently have an incident which requires a payout to a third party, they will pay it. They will then decide whether to take action to recover their loses from you. Obviously in this scenario they will not pay out to you from a comp policy, and likewise will look to get out of a fire claim or theft claim(unless you can convince them the thieves must have done the car up).

@Glasgow Bhoy, if he calls his insurance to enquire about adding mods, finds it too expensive, and subsequently cancels to go elsewhere, he DOES NOT have to declare that as insurance refused/cancelled. This delaration is only relevent where the insurance company has cancelled the policy, ie after a bogus claim has been discovered.

As far as the police are concerned he is legal on the road as he has 3rd party liability, the rest is between him and his insurer.

An insurance company will not refuse a 3rd party claim, simply because if one started doing this they all could, resulting in all the claims being run through MIB, increasing the insurers costs per policy( MIB is funded directly by them and less efficiently ).
slushpuppy
http://www.pinsentmasons.com/media/265878755.pdf

Insurance & Reinsurance
Can the Fraud Act really assist insurers?

As for insurance, the Act states that fraud can be
committed by ‘failing to disclose information’. The
Law Commission has recently opined that a legal duty
to disclose may include duties under transactions of
utmost good faith. This means that a person could be
guilty of the criminal offence of fraud for failing to
disclose information when entering into an insurance
contract whether at inception, renewal or when
making a claim.
jobo
QUOTE (slushpuppy @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:47) *
http://www.pinsentmasons.com/media/265878755.pdf

Insurance & Reinsurance
Can the Fraud Act really assist insurers?

As for insurance, the Act states that fraud can be
committed by ‘failing to disclose information’. The
Law Commission has recently opined that a legal duty
to disclose may include duties under transactions of
utmost good faith. This means that a person could be
guilty of the criminal offence of fraud for failing to
disclose information when entering into an insurance
contract whether at inception, renewal or when
making a claim.

that a legal duty
to disclose may include duties under transactions of
utmost good faith.



there not ONE fact in that link, just opinion


section of act ????????????????

Case law ???????
cshm37
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 14:09) *
QUOTE (slushpuppy @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:47) *
http://www.pinsentmasons.com/media/265878755.pdf

Insurance & Reinsurance
Can the Fraud Act really assist insurers?

As for insurance, the Act states that fraud can be
committed by ‘failing to disclose information’. The
Law Commission has recently opined that a legal duty
to disclose may include duties under transactions of
utmost good faith. This means that a person could be
guilty of the criminal offence of fraud for failing to
disclose information when entering into an insurance
contract whether at inception, renewal or when
making a claim.

that a legal duty
to disclose may include duties under transactions of
utmost good faith.



there not ONE fact in that link, just opinion


section of act ????????????????

Case law ???????


Have you looked up the Fraud Act yet, because the relevant section is somewhat obvious!

• Section 3 Fraud by failing to disclose information

• A person is in breach of this section if he—

– (a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

– (b) intends, by failing to disclose the information—

• (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

• (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.


Most cases of fraud (inc. mods) do not become case law, perhaps a better understanding of the Hierarchy of the justice system would help you.
cshm37
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 14:09) *
QUOTE (slushpuppy @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:47) *
http://www.pinsentmasons.com/media/265878755.pdf

Insurance & Reinsurance
Can the Fraud Act really assist insurers?

As for insurance, the Act states that fraud can be
committed by ‘failing to disclose information’. The
Law Commission has recently opined that a legal duty
to disclose may include duties under transactions of
utmost good faith. This means that a person could be
guilty of the criminal offence of fraud for failing to
disclose information when entering into an insurance
contract whether at inception, renewal or when
making a claim.

that a legal duty
to disclose may include duties under transactions of
utmost good faith.


.

Wikicrimeline

The concept of "legal duty" is explained in the Law Commission's Report on Fraud, which said at paragraphs 7.28 and 7.29: "7.28 ..Such a duty may derive from statute (such as the provisions governing company prospectuses), from the fact that the transaction in question is one of the utmost good faith (such as a contract of insurance), from the express or implied terms of a contract.... 7.29 For this purpose there is a legal duty to disclose information not only if the defendant's failure to disclose it gives the victim a cause of action for damages, but also if the law gives the victim a right to set aside any change in his or her legal position to which he or she may consent as a result of the non-disclosure. For example, a person in a fiduciary position has a duty to disclose material information when entering into a contract with his or her beneficiary, in the sense that a failure to make such disclosure will entitle the beneficiary to rescind the contract and to reclaim any property transferred under it." For example, the failure of a solicitor to share vital information with a client within the context of their work relationship, in order to perpetrate a fraud upon that client, would be covered by this section.
nomadros
I nearly ended up in the cack over this a few weeks ago.

I bought my car new in late 2005 and had a list of manufacturer extras specified as part of the build. (e.g. dropped suspension, modified exhaust, bhp increase, wider alloys etc). I never though anything of it, because the dealer dealt with the initial insurance and my insurance docs always just stated "Modifications: yes" and so I presumed everything was kosher. I also presumed that because the "mods" were manufacturer/factory mods installed at build time then there wouldn't be a problem. This doesn't appear to be true anymore.

This time when my insurance renewal came back it stated "Modifications: yes, tracking device" so I phoned them up only to discover that the insurance co was unaware of any of the mods (about £10K worth) and that I needed to specifiy every one of them including the bleeding sunroof. Considering my car was a facelift version with a new engine type and 4 years had passed, I hadn't a scooby what had been modified and what hadn't and no idea whether some mods made any difference to performance etc, so it took a long time to sort it all out.

The upshot being my insurance wasn't worth the paper it was written on and I had no idea I was in a potential sh*thole.

If you've had anything, absolutely anything done that is different from the defined factory specification and even though those changes were carried out by the factory during build, you seemingly must now declare them, so your insurance docs come back with "Suspension change (manufacturer)" etc on them.

From my perspective, it looks like the insurance companies have opened themselves up a nice little loophole into which the eager arms of the bib you can fall.
cshm37
QUOTE (nomadros @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 15:05) *
I nearly ended up in the cack over this a few weeks ago.

I bought my car new in late 2005 and had a list of manufacturer extras specified as part of the build. (e.g. dropped suspension, modified exhaust, bhp increase, wider alloys etc). I never though anything of it, because the dealer dealt with the initial insurance and my insurance docs always just stated "Modifications: yes" and so I presumed everything was kosher. I also presumed that because the "mods" were manufacturer/factory mods installed at build time then there wouldn't be a problem. This doesn't appear to be true anymore.

This time when my insurance renewal came back it stated "Modifications: yes, tracking device" so I phoned them up only to discover that the insurance co was unaware of any of the mods (about £10K worth) and that I needed to specifiy every one of them including the bleeding sunroof. Considering my car was a facelift version with a new engine type and 4 years had passed, I hadn't a scooby what had been modified and what hadn't and no idea whether some mods made any difference to performance etc, so it took a long time to sort it all out.

The upshot being my insurance wasn't worth the paper it was written on and I had no idea I was in a potential sh*thole.

If you've had anything, absolutely anything done that is different from the defined factory specification and even though those changes were carried out by the factory during build, you seemingly must now declare them, so your insurance docs come back with "Suspension change (manufacturer)" etc on them.

From my perspective, it looks like the insurance companies have opened themselves up a nice little loophole into which the eager arms of the bib you can fall.


Believe it or not; It is the fraudsters they are after, not unwitting policy holders!
jobo
yes mate ive read it

A person is in breach of this section if he—

– (a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

– (b) intends, by failing to disclose the information—

• (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

• (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.


theres significant problems with IMHO

1) he has to be under a legal duty to disclose information, which takes us back to the very beginning , what legal duty


2)it has to be dishonest, and he has to intend,,,, not just an over sight, how do you thing that they will prove that beyond RD for forgetting to mention your new wheels was dishonest


so if you wouldnt mind explaining ?????????????????????????
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (kwaks @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 13:45) *
Wow this is getting out of hand.

Ok, this is how it is. If you do not declare mods to an insurer, and subsequently have an incident which requires a payout to a third party, they will pay it. They will then decide whether to take action to recover their loses from you. Obviously in this scenario they will not pay out to you from a comp policy, and likewise will look to get out of a fire claim or theft claim(unless you can convince them the thieves must have done the car up).

@Glasgow Bhoy, if he calls his insurance to enquire about adding mods, finds it too expensive, and subsequently cancels to go elsewhere, he DOES NOT have to declare that as insurance refused/cancelled. This delaration is only relevent where the insurance company has cancelled the policy, ie after a bogus claim has been discovered.

As far as the police are concerned he is legal on the road as he has 3rd party liability, the rest is between him and his insurer.

An insurance company will not refuse a 3rd party claim, simply because if one started doing this they all could, resulting in all the claims being run through MIB, increasing the insurers costs per policy( MIB is funded directly by them and less efficiently ).



You couldn't have explained it much better!

Only thing I have to say though is that if his insurance decide to take a look at his car tomorrow and find the mods, they could cancel it- i.e. the insurers cancel not the policyholder. This would have to be declared to new insurers.
cshm37
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 31 Oct 2009 - 15:18) *
yes mate ive read it

A person is in breach of this section if he—

– (a) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and

– (b) intends, by failing to disclose the information—

• (i) to make a gain for himself or another, or

• (ii) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.


theres significant problems with IMHO

1) he has to be under a legal duty to disclose information, which takes us back to the very beginning , what legal duty


2)it has to be dishonest, and he has to intend,,,, not just an over sight, how do you thing that they will prove that beyond RD for forgetting to mention your new wheels was dishonest


so if you wouldnt mind explaining ?????????????????????????


1. I won't dignify that with a reply (see how far your argument gets you in Court!)

2. You are right, there has to be dishonesty (but for the sake of repeating myself again) do you understand the 'Ghosh Test'?

If reasonable and honest persons would consider it dishonest (your peers would NOT be your Boy Racer mates!) and don't forget that by not declaring the mods could well be seen by the jury as YOU didn't declare them for a reason (i.e. because you knew it would cost you more) such is, I suggest, Dishonest!

You can live in your little dream world thinking that you are untouchable, but I can assure you -in the big bad real world the reality is different!
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