Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Sec172
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
gfisher
Ok just received a statutory notice stating that the driver of myvehicle has alleged to have commited an offence of driving without due care and attention, failing to stop after a road traffic collision and failing to report a road traffic collision to the police within 24 hours.

What i know, I stayed at my friends house on Thursday evening and went out for a few beers, I parked outside his flat on a private parking area for the residents of the flats. I knew my mate had one of the unmarked spaces and couldn't see his car. I parked in an available space and went to the pub to meet my friend.

In the morning i get up to go to work and someone had blocked me in, Fair enough it may have been his parking spot. On hearing my car start up and as i start to reverse out of the gap which had plenty of room to manevoure he comes out and starts shouting that i've hit his car. I stop and get out leaving the car where it was when he came out and i was no where near his car but he points out a mark on his bumper then points to my bumper saying it's marked my already scratched bumpers on a 10+year old car. We discuss and then he asks for my name, i refuse to give it to him as i know i did not hit his car but he takes a picture of my number plate and now i've got a statutory notice.

So what do the collective think i should do? I know i need to reply to the notice that i'm the owner of the vehicle but it's asking for the driver of the vehicle at the time of the allegedy offence.

This allegedly happened on a road, when i was actually on a private parking area for a block of flats and not on the road mentioned.

My friend was in the car with me at the time and witnessed it all.
jobo
it doesnt matter if its open to members of the public, which it is coz you got in


theres a problem here which is after an accident you need to give your details to any one having a reason to ask

there would seem to be a defence to this that if there was NO accident then you dont need to do so

is that exactly what it says on the nip coz theres two mutuality exclusive offences there

you need to return the 172 naming yourself as driver then see what happens next
gfisher
The NIP says

The driver of (reg Number) - is alleged to have commited an offence of Driving without due care and attention, failing to stop after a road Traffic collision and failing to report a road traffic collision to the police within 24 hours at 09.00hrs on Friday 23/10/2009 at Admiral Way, (town name).

then the normal text about Section 172 of Road traffic act 1988 etc etc

The second page asks for any additional information insurance details, Phone number, driving licence number, but states that it is not required by law to do so.

page 3 is the prosecution form, with Dangerous driving crossed out and numbers 2 Without due care and attention and 3 Without resonable consideration for other persons using the road
Gan
As far as I'm aware, the road traffic acts apply to any road that has public access.

When does he allege that you actually hit his car - as you were backing out in the morning or the previous night ?
If he claims the previous night, and he wasn't there, he has some explaining to do.

If he took photos, they will also show where the cars actually were. Nobody, in that situation, takes pictures of just a number plate if it will help their case. Can they be used to show, as you suggest, that there was a wide gap and it was impossible to hit his car as shown ? If it ever comes to court you have a right to them.

Just a pity that you didn't exchange details. It would have avoided the need to report to the police and they wouldn't have bothered with a careless driving in the situation you describe.

After all, if he was that concerned, he only had to move his car to make room.
gfisher
He's saying that i hit him just as he came out of his flat. I arrived the night before between 830pm and 9pm, so dark and returned later on after 11pm and he had parked behind me, despite there being empty spaces in the parking area.

He only took one photo at arms length when we were standing between his car and mine of my number plate as i refused to give my name and details as i didn't hit his car. My friend the owner a flat in the same bloke that the blokes lives in gave his name and flat number.

He's saying that he washes his car regularly and notices any damage. The car didn't look clean for this time of year and he returned home in the dark so the allegedy collision could have happened anywhere.
jobo
so he didnt claim to see the alledged collision then just assumed the DAMAGE was caused by you
gfisher
Nope didn't claim to have seen the allegedy collision, just pointed out damage straight away.
jobo
you have a witness to this conversation ??

it sound like its your word against his about a contact he doesnt even claim to have witnessed

unless he change his story by the time he got to the police ??

the careless charge has little chance, the failure to give details when requested is your problem
Gan
Thanks Jobo

That's what I was wondering. So the only "evidence" of a collision is an alleged scratch on a bumper that he didn't take the trouble to photograph. Your problem though is that you have to account for a witness, the forensic (scratched bumper) and your conduct.

I would return with a photographer of my own - with a decent DSLR as well as a briefcase, clipboard and a tape measure. The approach i always used for engineering failures as well the occasional accident was to start with the general before the specific.

Get pictures of the layout of the bays as well as the views you would have as a driver and, very important, the view from his flat. This will show that he couldn't see the incident. Did he claim he saw it from upstairs instead ? If so, how can he explain that you were still there by the time he arrived outside ?

Looking at his car, is it as clean as he says ? Are there other scratches and dents ? If he sees you taking pictures of his tax disc and tyres he will be uncomfortable if he's pulling a scam.

Then pay attention to his bumper. Measure its exact location and height. Photograph it with the tape measure in place. Could it correspond to your bumper or are the two cars at completely different heights ? Are the marks offset in such a way that they could never have contacted ? Don't forget to allow for the weight of driver/passenger.

The aim of all this, of course, is to support your assertion that the incident never occurred. If he could not see the collision - he's not a witness; if the scratch must have occurred elsewhere - there is no forensic and if there was no contact - you had no need to provide your details.

Better still, if he arrived between 9 and 11 pm the night before - does the bay layout and the position of the scratch suggest that any accident occurred while he was parking in the dark ?
gfisher
Ok that all makes sense.

I will go and get photos and measurements.

I did stop and spoke with the guy and my passenger got out as well and witnessed the whole conversation.

My car is a Discovery and it's bumper is high off the ground. I also use it off road so there is scratches on my bumper already front and rear and down the side from branches along green lanes.

I will return the NIP with my details and my explanation of the discussion. I refused to give my details as i know i didn't hit his car, i had no objections for him taking a picture of my number plate. So failing to stop after a collision is incorrect. It would be good to hear what he has said to the police when he reported it. Is there anyway i can find this information out?
desktop_demon
QUOTE
My friend the owner a flat in the same bloke that the blokes lives in gave his name and flat number.

How much of the proceedings did the OP's friend witness? Was he at the scene or did he come out in response to the "discussion"?

The OP should fill in the NIP and return it within 28 days but should not return any other statement or written description at this stage. If very motivated to do so then at most a simple comment along the lines of the OP "is unaware of any incident happening at or about the time and place mentioned".

While "attack can be the best form of defence" in situations such as this it is best to let the adversary reveal their strategy first. The police will have to consider the strength of the prosecution case - which looks almost non-existent from what the OP tells us.

The advice given by others about gathering all the evidence available, photographing the scene, any damage to the alleged victim's car and your vehicle are a good idea. The OP can also ask if there are any other witnesses to what was alleged to have happened - eg. in nearby flats. Are there any video cameras covering the area of the alleged incident.
gfisher
My friend was in the car with me at the time, and got out at the same time as me when the bloke came out of his flat and started ranting.

My friend has just got in to work and he has a witness form to fill in.

I will return the NIP with the information of the driver as the owner of the vehicle and driver at the time and let the police deal with the matter. I've given my mobile number as additional information if they wish to speak to me.

Gan
Be very wary of a police officer who "just wants to speak to you".

The only purpose is to trip you up and provide evidence of your alleged offences.

At present all they have is a witness who couldn't see it, claiming that a collision occurred - and two witnesses who say that it didn't.

If I had my cynical hat on, I could almost believe that anyone in that mood who waits behind a door with a camera phone had hit your car in the dark the night before and wanted to get his story in first.
MartinHP71

Don't forget what Gan advised to get pictures and measurements. Especially bumper height from the ground for your car and for the car this person claimed you hit.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.