Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Gatso camera, not sure of driver.
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
ted1234
Our car was photographed by a Gatso camera doing 40mph in a 30mph. One of the ones stuck in the middle of a 40mph zone down to 30mph then surprise surprise up to 40 again.

The car is supplied by my partners company who lease it from a leasing company. Both my partner and I are insured to drive the car.

The alleged offence is said to of taken place on 21.06.2009
Head office of the company my partner works for received Notice of Intended Prosecution on 14 Jul 2009 and it was then forwarded to my partners workplace a week or so later.

On receiving the NIP we did not fill it out but instead wrote a letter to the Camera Processing Unit asking if they had sent out the NIP in the required time (hoping this would be an end to it as we genuinely could not remember who was driving at the time) to which they responded explaining they had sent the NIP to the Registered Owner of the car in time, which after checking we found to be correct.

We sent another letter stating that my partner was unsure who was driving at that time on that day and could we have a photograph to try and help identify who was driving. I must say at this point that in our correspondence with the CPU so far my partner has not named me as the other driver entitled to drive and who might of been driving at the time IS THIS NOW AGAINST US? As I say we still have the three pages of the NIP with us and have as yet not returned it.

We received a photo. A single photo of rear shot with no one in the car in view, no passenger, no driver. On seeing this my partner again wrote to CPU telling them that from the photo she was still unable to tell who was driving, on which we received another letter from the CPU and you all know what it says.......It is up to my partner to tell them who was driving at the time or go to court and proove you are unable to name driver (or some sort of legal jargon I think means that)! But very nicely of them they have given us ANOTHER 28 days to remember who the driver was......but we cannot, and we only have a week or so left!

Any advice on this one please. I find it sad that we are law abiding citizens or have been up till now and we are (or at least my partner) are being treated as a liar and if the government get their way as criminals! What has this country come to, are they really so desperate for money here now? If there was a 'back of a head' in the photo we would be able to identify who was driving from that, but nothing. This is stupid are we supposed to fill out a log sheet now every time we use a car just incase we get caught by a camera strategically placed inbetween a 40mph zone!
I know it is a law broken but I'm pis**d over the way we are getting caught out.......40 in a 30 that is inbetween a 40 zone ..........rant over

Thanks.
andy_foster
You seem to have managed to avoid telling us when your partner received her NIP/s. 172.
As you seem to have twigged, if she is unable to name the driver, as well as proving (on the balance of probabilities) that she does not know who was driving, and could not with reasonable diligence determine the driver's identity, she would have needed to provide any information that was in her power to give and the might lead to the identification of the driver within the original 28 days (beginning with the date of service of her first NIP/s. 172).
If she has not done this, she potentially has no defence to an s. 172 charge.

Ignoring that point, a 'subsection (4)' defence relies on credibility at least as much as diligence. The initial letter, which appears to be an attempt to 'get off on a technicality' is perhaps unhelpful. Not that we have anything against getting off on technicalities, but being seen to be attempting to do so can damage your credibility.

Technically, there is nothing in the relevant statute that gives effect to extensions to the 28 days, given by the scammers - but if you comply with the requirements of any 'reminders', it would be an abuse of process to prosecute you for an original failure to provide information. However, if the reminder requires you to name the driver, rather than merely provide any information that is in your power to give, etc., it would seem that you would either have to name a driver or get an almost certain 6 points for failing to provide information.

If you were to knowingly and wilfully name the wrong driver, that would be a serious offence - either s. 5 Perjury Act 1911, or perverting the course of public justice. However, if you were to simply guess which one of you was driving and name them, that would not be an offence, other than possibly under s. 172 if you named the wrong driver - which would seem to be somewhat difficult to prove as the evidence does not show who was driving.

How long does your partner have left of the new 28 days?
V70owner
QUOTE (ted1234 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2009 - 00:03) *
This is stupid are we supposed to fill out a log sheet now every time we use a car just incase we get caught by a camera strategically placed inbetween a 40mph zone!


My company do. We have a log book in security and whenever someone uses one of the company pool cars their driving license is checked. The car is also checked over by the driver signing the car out and security staff and a note of any damage recorded and signed for. The time the driver takes the car out and back in are also logged.
ted1234
First NIP notice issue date 08/07/2009
Second NIP notice issue date 01/10/2009. EEEk just realised only two days left!

Looks like one of us will have to take the points.

Its funny, long before all this speeding issue came along we (my partner and I) have on many occasions discussed leaving this country (to the point we have been making enquiries about working, schooling, housing etc in the country we intend moving to.)

Amongst everything else wrong with this country and the addition of unjust things like this makes our desicion so much easier. Who losses in the end? The two proffessional people who pay more tax than the average 'Joe' (no offence to Joe) leaving a country for a better life elsewhere because they no longer feel their birth country is fair to its own people, or the government who loose two proffessional law abiding people contributing to their country. Ahhh well good luck Britain rolleyes.gif Something tells me your gonna need it!

I have checked the two NIP and it turns out the camera was MANUAL DETECTION not Gatso. That damn van must of been well hidden!! It's all trickery here biggrin.gif
C.T.C
QUOTE (ted1234 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2009 - 10:05) *
or the government who loose two proffessional law abiding people contributing to their country. Ahhh well good luck Britain rolleyes.gif Something tells me your gonna need it!


Without going too far off topic, just don't break the laws of the country you live in.... not rocket science.

My mate shipped out to Dubai, he loves it, no Tax to pay, but if he gets caught speeding there, the Cops seize your car and you get it back after you pay the fine... he says he'd much rather deal with UK traffic laws.
ted1234
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 26 Oct 2009 - 06:28) *
If you were to knowingly and wilfully name the wrong driver, that would be a serious offence - either s. 5 Perjury Act 1911, or perverting the course of public justice. However, if you were to simply guess which one of you was driving and name them, that would not be an offence, other than possibly under s. 172 if you named the wrong driver - which would seem to be somewhat difficult to prove as the evidence does not show who was driving.

How long does your partner have left of the new 28 days?



Thanks for the info.

So if my partner named me as the driver and after this I respond that I am not confident I was the driver because we cannot remember. Where would that leave us? Back at square one! But what would be the procedure then?
ted1234
QUOTE (C.T.C @ Mon, 26 Oct 2009 - 09:17) *
Without going too far off topic, just don't break the laws of the country you live in.... not rocket science.

My mate shipped out to Dubai, he loves it, no Tax to pay, but if he gets caught speeding there, the Cops seize your car and you get it back after you pay the fine... he says he'd much rather deal with UK traffic laws.


I wonder if in Dubai the insurance companies then hold you to boot for five years and add rediculous amounts of money to the cost of your policy because of the offence even if there is a possibility you did not commit the offence in the first place!

Without going off topic
C.T.C
QUOTE (ted1234 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2009 - 10:39) *
I wonder if in Dubai the insurance companies then hold you to boot for five years and add rediculous amounts of money to the cost of your policy because of the offence even if there is a possibility you did not commit the offence in the first place!


Yes, unless you are a 'local'.

In an Collision, the Ex-pat is always at fault regardless of circumstances, apparently.
ted1234
Nice to see a country looking after its 'own'! Wish it was like that here, wouldn't have the urge to leave then biggrin.gif
7159keith
Fist of all can you clarify that the 1/10 NIP was the first you partner got in her own name? Your information as presented is confusing.

If you are genuinely unsure who was driving you will need to stand in front of a magistrate and your partner will have to demonstrate reasonable diligence in trying to ascertain the driver.
andy_foster
QUOTE (ted1234 @ Mon, 26 Oct 2009 - 09:28) *
So if my partner named me as the driver and after this I respond that I am not confident I was the driver because we cannot remember. Where would that leave us? Back at square one! But what would be the procedure then?


Tricky one.
As you are not the person keeping the vehicle, your obligations under s. 172 would be far less onerous than that of your partner. If you simply told them what you know, you'd be pretty safe both from s. 172 and the substantive speeding allegation. However, your partner might well be summoned for s. 172, and your response (with her earlier responses) would probably constitute sufficient evidence that she did not unequivocally name the actual driver for the court to find that there is a case to answer. It is very possible that your partner could get 6 points (endorsement code MS90) and ~£300 fine.

If you were to be named as the driver, and 'admitted' to being the driver in response to your own s. 172 notice, you would normally be offered a COFP for that speed. If the COFP was issued less than 28 days before the 6 months from the date of the alleged speeding offence expired, it would be too late to prosecute you if you ignored the COFP.
It is possible that they might not issue a COFP at that point, but IMHO unlikely.

As you and your partner have failed to provide the details of the possible drivers within your original 28 days, that is potentially a slam dunk for the prosecution under s. 172. To safely avoid that, either she 'admits' to being the driver and gets 3 points and a £60 fine, or you 'admit' to being the driver and probably time out, but might get the 3 points and £60 fine.
Any attempt to backtrack after naming the driver risks your partner getting done under s. 172. It is not absolutely certain that she would be convicted, but I don't like her chances.


QUOTE
First NIP notice issue date 08/07/2009


First NIP to who?
ted1234
First Nip issued went to: (We assumed this was because it is a company car leased by the company my partner works for)

Company secretary
******** UK Ltd
Sheffield ***
****** ******* *******
*******
*****

It was forwarded from the above address to my partners office In Newport Gwent (she works for company the first NIP was sent to.) The office in Sheffield have stamped NIP with [RECEIVED 14 JUL 2009]

The first NIP with my partners name and address was sent to our home 29/09/2009. I have got the date 1/10/2009 wrong! I am having to ring my partner to ask about dates etc as I am away at the moment so I think she is getting confussed. Issued 29/09/2009. Received by us on the 1/10/2009.

Sorry for confusion. Today looks like our last day!!!!
andy_foster
QUOTE
********


I am not familiar with this company...

Is ******** your partner's employers, or the lease company?

What makes you think that this was the first NIP issued?

If the first NIP issued in your partner's name was issued on 29/09/2009 and served on 01/10/2009, when was she sent another NIP giving her another 28 days?


Is there any reason why your partner can't give us the correct details, rather than you playing chinese whispers and at best giving us half the story?
7159keith
Your most pressing need is for your partner to respond to her S172 request asap as in a couple of days she will have committed an offence that will prove hard to defend.

At the very least she needs to respond naming both of you as possible drivers giving names and DoB, the letter must be signed to be compliant. She will still get a S172 summons but the case will then turn on reasonable diligence rather than a valid response within the 28 days.

On the other hand if she thinks you were driving then she needs to fill the NIP in naming you, suggest responding by registered post.

As Andy says, can she not come on and give the direct info?
ted1234
Ok I now have faxes of NIP/s.

My partner is currently busy with something so I am doing my best not to distract her her too much.

Anyways

I really would not like placing company names we are associated with in public forums so I will give it an alias if you all do not mind.

If you do require such info I would gladly e-mail or PM you.

The first NIP was sent to my partners HEAD OFFICE: GOTDONE SHEFFIELD

COMPANY SECRETARY
GOTDONE UK LTD
SHEFFIELD
(Address)
(Address)
(POSTCODE)

GOTDONE is the company my partner works for. The GOTDONE Sheffield office organised the lease of the car they are NOT the leasing company. The leasing company is ARWELL. If the car needs new tyres etc, it is the GOTDONE Sheffield office that sorts things out concerning the car with ARWELL.

The first NIP sent out went to GOTDONE Sheffield.
The NIP lists alleged offence took place on 21/06/2009
It has a NOTICE ISSUE DATE: 08/07/2009
GOTDONE Sheffield
received NIP (with the GOTDONE Sheffield name and address on NIP) on 14 JUL 2009.
GOTDONE Sheffield then forwarded by post the NIP they had received on 14 JUL 2009 to my partner in GOTDONE Newport Gwent (some 180 miles away.) Simply hand writting F.A.O (partners name) at the top of the NIP

Because there was quite a time delay from alleged offence date to us receiving NIP (and we genuinely could not say for sure who had been driving) we queried the time delay, to which the CPU advised that because the car was leased they were within the time limits.

Because we could not remember driver we then requested a photograph to try and help us identify driver.

On the 29/09/2009 we received a photograph from Avon and Somerset Constabulary CPU
With the photo was another NIP (although it was the second NIP it was the first one we had received with my partners name and address on it)

NOTICE ISSUE DATE: 29/09/2009

The photo did not show who was driving so we responded by letter (NOT BY NIP) that we were unable to work out who was driving at the time of the alleged offence.

On the 20/10/2009 we received a letter from the Avon and Somerset Constabulary:

Dear ,

I refer to your recent correspondence and must advise you that the photographic evidence is used only to identify the vehicle registration mark and details of the vehicle.

The law requires the owner/keeper of a vehicle to supply details of the driver at the time of the alleged offence. Failure to do so could result in the owner/keeper being fined, having their licence endorsed or being disqualified from driving unless they can satisfy the Court that they have taken all reasonable steps to identify the driver.

Only a single unequivocal nomination can be accepted as a valid reply to the Notice.

The deadline on the Notice will expire twenty eight days from the Notice issue date. Please note that the Camera Processing Unit is not permitted to consider any mitigation. As you have informed us that you are unable to nominate the driver of the vehicle the case will be prepared for a Court hearing for the offence of Failure to Supply driver details which will supersede speeding fine.

In the case of a Court hearing, you will receive a plea and mitigation form in which you can explain your circumstances as set out in your letter.

Please note that the time limit indicated on the Notice is not extended by correspondence.

Yours sincerely

Clerical officer ****
Camera Processing Unit
andy_foster
As the car was leased, the NIP to GOTDONE would not have been the first NIP.

The NIP to GOTDONE did not impose any personal legal obligation on your partner. The 28 days for her to provide the required information began with the date on which the notice addressed to her was served (not issued). The date of service is deemed to be 2 business days after posting, unless the contrary is proved.
In other words, her response must be with them by Wednesday 28th.

As her 28 days have not yet expired, it is not too late to provide any information that is in [her] power to give and that might lead to the identification of the driver.
It is perhaps arguable that as the scammers have indicated that they have already decided to summons her for failing to provide the information, that the requirement to provide information in her power to give is now moot, but that is an argument she won't need to rely on if she does provide that information.

What has she (and/or you) done to try to determine who was driving, other than requesting the photos? Can you demonstrate that you exhausted reasonable diligence?
7159keith
If this is her regular vehicle she will be considered as the person keeping the vehicle so will be required to show reasonable diligence in her efforts to identify the driver.
ted1234
We were in Bristol that weekend , both driving seperately as well as together and we passed the place where the alleged offence took place quite a few times that day. What do we have to do? If we cannot remember? This is not an issue about being caught breaking the law but about the correct person being 'punished' if you like.
The money and points really do not bother me or my partner, it is the presumption we are liars and basically the law of the land supports this and wants 'blood' ooooops 'MONEY' no matter what and is now no longer sympathetic to individuals and just tars everyone with the same brush.
Ok an offence has been committed and both of us are prepared to put our hands up for it but in reality why should we when one of us is innocent?

I am starting to feel just like they want us to and just take the wrap myself. That is against my principals and it really p***es me off!

I have read that if we go the mitigation route we can ask if/ when camera was last calibrated and where van was parked etc and try that route? What are peoples thoughts on that?
7159keith
As others have said reasonable diligence is an issue as much about credibility as information.

Whatever happens unless you remember who was driving and one of you takes the penalty this will end up with a visit to the mags court and and asking questions about calibration, van parking etc will get you nowhere and may damage your credibility.

There is much info on the forum on reasonable diligence, read it and you will see what is needed.

What is sure is that if your partner does not send her reply in pretty sharp she will end up on the wrong end of a S172 six pointer.

Do not understand your "mitigation" comment mitigation is usually related to trying to reduce the penalty on a guilty plea.
ted1234
Thanks Keith,

My head is scrammbled at the moment.....as you can no doubt tell biggrin.gif

Will tell her to get the form off today and just name me as the driver I think.

I will take the wrap for something I may not of done.......British justice served yet again!

Am I able to express our opinions and our concerns over this process to anyone in authority?(not that anyone really cares!)

I still cannot get my head around having to admit to something I may not of done, but will take the blame anyway to save my partner the bully-boy tactics these w*****s have now employed.

Paul
Pete D
As this was a van then there is a full session video and your could make an appointment and go and view the video which may show a better shot and allow you to identify the driver. Pete D
ted1234
Hi again,

Here we go again......................
After my last post on this thread my wife sent off the NIP naming me as the driver. Today we get another NIP for same offence with A DIFFERENT ISSUE DATE OF 31/10/2009?

I do not understand why they have done this? We have already responded. The NIP is not addressed to me (the named driver of offence) but is sent to my wife again.

Paul
desktop_demon
Excellent - wait 24 days and then send back the same reply as last time by special delivery. Whenever a s.172 demand is made the recipient must furnish the information requested. At this rate timing out the summons might well be an option.
ted1234
Thanks desktop_demon.

Can I just clarify ......I send off NIP recorded delivery 24 days from today (Fri 27 November)

Can you please explain the timing out process please. As I understand it, it is 6 months but from when, date of alleged offence or date of Notice Issue?

Thanks.
7159keith
For the alleged offence it is 6 months from the date of the offence, for S172 it is 6 months from the date of the last valid request.

Your speeding allegation will therefore time out on 21/12, so do as DD says sending by recorded delivery and by the time you get a CoFP with 28 days to reply it may take you past the time out date.

Good luck.
andy_foster
Close, but no cigar...

It is debatable as to whether the OP's wife is obliged to complete the second notice - there is case law (Duff) which provides that where the driver names himself in response to a notice addressed to another person, that does not absolve him of their requirement to provide the information in response to a notice addressed to him.
It might be that the response sent by the OP's wife was lost in the post. If that is the case, it is debatable whether merely sending the previous response complied with the obligation, or whether having received what appears to be a reminder, the obligation remains.

However, this is largely academic - there seems little to gain by not responding to the second NIP/s. 172, and a very real risk of prosecution for s. 172 if she does not.

The real issue is that either the response may have been delayed in the post, or the scammers haven't gotten round to processing it yet, and they might issue the OP a NIP/s. 172 in his own name sooner than we would like.
However, that is a bridge that we would need to cross if we come to it.

If we assume that the previous response is lost and we are starting again with the new notice -

It will be presumed to have been served 2 business days after posting (Duff, Gidden) - although it should be noted that the date of issue is not necessarily the date of posting - particularly when the issue date is a Saturday. That presumption is rebuttable, but as we shall see, that is unimportant.

The notice will be presumed to have been served on 03/11/2009 if posted on 31/10/2009. That is 1 day before actual service, which we will ignore for the time being.

The requirement is to provide the information within 28 days beginning with the date of service - which means that the date of service is day 1. So the response must be served on the scammers by 30/11/2009.
If they are efficient, they could then issue the OP a NIP/s. 172 in his own name, and post it on that date.
A notice posted on 30/11/2009 would be presumed to have been served 2 business days later - on 02/12/2009. The OP would then have 28 days including that date to name himself as the driver - IOW the response would need to be served on them by 29/12/2009 - which is too late for them to lay an information, being after the 6 months timeout of 21/12/2009 - game over, you win.

COFPs only come into the equation if the OP receives his own NIP/s .172 sooner than anticipated.
ted1234
So if I do not receive a NIP/s .172 in my name in the mean time, what is the latest date my wife can return her NIP by registered post?
By saying: "response must be served to the scammers by 30/11/2009." Does that mean my wife should post her NIP two days before this (28/11/2009) or should she post (recorded) NIP on 30/11/2009?
Sorry for my ignorance but as you may appreciate I want to get everything correct.

Thanks
southpaw82
The response must be received on (or before) 30/11/09 - thus it needs to be posted such that it reaches them by that date.
ted1234
My wife returned NIP naming me as the driver special delivery. It arrived at the scameras on time.

Today I have received a NIP in my name.

Just a recap......

Alleged offence took place 21/06/2009

NIP Issue date 01/12/2009 with 28 day response time

What do I need to do now please?

Do I just ignore NIP or do I tell the scameras that it is a time out closer to time out date?

Thanks
murphcbr6
QUOTE
Do I just ignore NIP or do I tell the scameras that it is a time out closer to time out date?


I'm sure someone with more knowledge will confirm my thinking this - but I believe there is absolutely no benefit to you in reminding them that you are close to a timeout - they might take it upon themselves to skip straight to a summons?

Is there anything that you are required to respond to in a NIP?
Was there a CoFP enclosed with the NIP?
southpaw82
Presumably there was a requirement under s. 172 to provide the driver's details. Do so, after the time out limit but before the 28 days expire or you will be hit with six points and a large fine.
ted1234
Just a NIP received.S. 172 Required to name driver.

Will return as instructed.

Thanks
BaggieBoy
As Southpaw says, do not reply naming yurself until after 6 months from the original offence has occured, i.e. 21st December. After that you can safelty ignore any further mailings from them, unless they are dumb enough to try to issue a summons.
ted1234
Going to return NIP tomorrow by registered post.

Because my wife has named me as driver on her NIP and they sent NIP in my name (Issue date 01/12/2009) Even though this will be a time out do I fill in the part NOT applying for fixed penalty (page 2 Reply To Notice Form) or the part applying for fixed penalty (page 3 Payment Of Fixed Penalty Form)and fill in card details and include driving licence? Sorry if dull question but I do not want any come backs or give the scameras any reason to continue their scam!

Thanks
BaggieBoy
Under no circumstances send back your licence allow them to take payment, because they will just process it and you will get 3 points and will be £60 worse off. All you have to do is reply naing yourself as the driver at this point, that is your only legal obligation.
ted1234
Replied to Nip naming myself as driver on 22nd December 2009 One day after 6mth TIME OUT. Heard no more from the scameras department tongue.gif

So may I send my thanks to any police officers who may look in on this site (or anyone else in the scamera business!) I feel sorry for you lot having to use the tactics you use and the morals you have.

Thanks everyone here who offered advice and help.

To this day we are still not sure who was driving (as explained previously). It is unfortunate that British law now classes anyone in their sights as a law breaker unless they attend court to PROOVE THEY ARE INNOCENT. The things this country has to do now to make a £.........shamefull I'm sure you would agree!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.