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Full Version: Got a ticket on double yellow lines with "BIG BREAK". Can i fight it?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
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arichmond64
Ok here it goes.
Outside my house, you need a permit to park on the street, I have a permit, but sometimes there is no spaces because parmits are also given to buisnesses aswell as residents. About 15 feet away from the spaces is another part of the street, this has double yellow lines, BUT they have a huge gap in them because the road was re surfaced, the gap is big enough for the 4 wheels of my car.
Any way, I normally park here only as a last resort, moving it early on the morning, or parking late at night when the wardens are tucked up in bed at home.
Unfortunately, it seems my neigbours are not happy about where im parking, and I believe they have reported me, the main reason is that, I got two tickets over 3 days, 1 at 8:20 am on the morning, they never come round that early, and, this is the big one, I recieved a PCN at 8:50pm on a Sunday night!!!! Someone tell me which parking warden is working then. Im certain they have reported me, but I dont get how iv been issued this ticket, can the Police give out PCN's?

Any way, the main subject of this post is; am I able to contest both these tickets on the grounds that the lines have big break in them, and are therefore invalid.

Here is the pics:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...4/DSC00642.jpg
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...4/DSC00643.jpg
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...4/DSC00644.jpg
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z...4/DSC00645.jpg




I am Weasel
Well it would be a bit of a gamble to try and win on the lines alone. They are indeed worn, but IMO are sufficient to convey the restriction. Why not post up the PCNs (both sides) suitably scrubbed of personal info. There may be avenues to explore around the tickets themselves
dave-o
Yeah this would be a gamble at best.

Which council?
arichmond64
I will scan the PCN's later on post them.
The thing is, how did I recieve a PCN at night?
Did the police give me it?
I wanna go round next door and smash there faces to pieces after this!
dave-o
There is no reason to believe your neighbours have anythign to do with this.

CEOs are often at work 24/7.
arichmond64
I have parked there for 3 years after 5 : 30 pm and never once had a ticket or seen a parking warden at this time.
Then all of a sudden, new neighbours move in, and already had a go at my friend for parkin near their house for 2 minutes, followed by evil looks at me for parking on the double yellows, then within the space of three days, i recieve a ticket at 8 : 20 when not once have they been round so early, followed by another ticket at 8 : 50 PM ON A SUNDAY NIGHT!
Something is not right
dave-o
It's unlikely the council would send a CEO down there just to ticket you, even if your neighbours grassed.

Best to concentrate on getting this cancelled rather than smashing faces with no evidence.
arichmond64
So after 3 years, your saying a warden just decided to come down my round on a Sunday night at 8 : 50. Like i said, iv been in York for 4 years, this house for 3, and now once have I seen a warden after 6 pm.
Any way yeh, onto the buisness of fighting it.
I have seen alot of people online referencing "Davies v Heatley [1971] RTR 145"

Because by s.64 (2) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 traffic signs shall be of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation, if a sign the contravention of which is an offence contrary to s.36 is not as prescribed by the regulation, no offence is committed if the sign is contravened, even if the sign is clearly recognisable to a reasonable man as a sign of that kind.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113ba.gif

Point 4 on the right picture, No Variation of the picture, therefore the lines should not be valid.
Anyone had any experience with this kind of thing before.
arichmond64
Come on people, iv seen a post like this on this forum, people know a thing or two about this?
cabbyman
You may get some replies, in due course, if you re-read the thread and respond to the requests that you have ignored so far, eg Which council? Scans of docs....

Everyone on here is here to help but, in their time. Sometimes the experts on a particular topic may not appear for a day or two. At present, even if they did, you have given them very little to 'chew' on so far.
arichmond64
Ok, fair enough, im going to go to my Uni and copy the tickets, then post them on here so you can see.
I really dont want to pay these tickets, its not even a matter of the money now, its a matter of principle, and my neighbours.
arichmond64
Ok here they are, without personal details.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ari...toberticker.jpg <<<<<,,, 18th October ticket

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ari...ackofticket.jpg <<<<<<<< back of both tickets

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z18/ari...16htoctober.jpg <<<<<<< 16th October Ticket

TallBloke
I successfully appealed a ticket after I parked on a single yellow with a break in it. Harrow Council insisted the line was compliant right up until the day before adjudication when they bottled out. That was three years ago and they have yet to repaint the line.

arichmond64
How far down the line did you go, because I can appeal the tickets, but as you know, the council will probably say it still stands.
What do you think of my pictures? Do you think I have a case like yours?
dave-o
The PCNs are OK.

I don't think you have a strong appeal.

If (as it seems) you want to fight this all the way, then here is my suggested plan of action:

-Wait for the NTOs to arrive. Post them here so we can see if there are any errors.
-Make an appeal on the broken yellow lines, plus any problems we find with the NTO.
-When they refuse, post he rejection here so we can check for any errors.
-Appeal to the asjudicator.Choose a personal hearing on saturday morning.

It's possible they'll mess up future documents. There is a chance they will consider their argument shaky enough that they will withdraw form the adjudication process a few days before your hearing. It my experience, they are less keen on turning up on weekends too.

At the end of the day this is a gamble, but it may pay off. The most you will ever have to pay, as long as you stick to your deadlines, is £70.
Glacier2
That sounds like a plan. Many councils chicken out at the last minute but that said it won't cost you any more to exercise your right of appeal.
arichmond64
Ahhhh, so even though im going to take this all the way, I wont have to pay any more than 70 pound. I dont have much to lose then do I really?

Do I make a normal PCN appeal first, the standard online appeal, then go from their with it?
Do I need to gather up any sort of evidence etc. to try and back me up, like the above about davies v heatley?
I am Weasel
I thought that if you take it all the way & lose, each ticket will be £70 i.e. you will have lost the chance to pay the reduced amount.
dave-o
QUOTE (arichmond64 @ Tue, 20 Oct 2009 - 12:31) *
Ahhhh, so even though im going to take this all the way, I wont have to pay any more than 70 pound. I dont have much to lose then do I really?


Well, once it gets to NTO stage you have nothing to lose, no. At the PCN stage, you have (in this case) £35 to 'lose'. *edit* PER TICKET.

QUOTE (arichmond64 @ Tue, 20 Oct 2009 - 12:31) *
Do I make a normal PCN appeal first, the standard online appeal, then go from their with it?
Do I need to gather up any sort of evidence etc. to try and back me up, like the above about davies v heatley?



No, just wait for the NTO as in my action plan above.

You can put together an appeal then. You will have a month to do so.

QUOTE (dave-o @ Tue, 20 Oct 2009 - 10:29) *
The most you will ever have to pay, as long as you stick to your deadlines, is £70.



Weasel is right. I should have said "£70 PER TICKET". Hope this is clear.
arichmond64
Ahhhh, yeh I see fair enough.
A guy pm'ed me on here saying he has done the same thing as me, and his council chickened out at the last minute like someone said, which gives me hope.
I need to decide is it really worth going all that way though with the gamble of losing and pay 140 pound, or just pay 70 now.

Anyone else out there had any success with this???
southpaw82
 
QUOTE (arichmond64 @ Tue, 20 Oct 2009 - 12:42) *
Anyone else out there had any success with this???

It really doesn't matter whether anybody has or hasn't as each case is decided on its own facts. Only you can make the decision whether to fold or fight, guided by the advice you have been given.


arichmond64
Hello again.
As you can see, and some of you will of posted, I am fighting the two PCNs I recieved.
You guys said wiat till the NTO's are here, and they have arrived, so what is my next move.
Dave-o, I know your well clued up, any advice please.
Adam
Glacier2
Scan what you have received, all pages front and back please.
arichmond64
People?
dave-o
So many pictures, so many at photobucket = so many popups.

Could you host them at tinypic and post them directly into the thread? Otherwise you are making it hard for people to help.
arichmond64









Is this what you mean Davo-o?
dave-o
Yes, that's the ticket (!!!).

That NTO looks OK to me, but maybe someone else will see something.

They are both identical are they (except for pics and date/time obv)?
arichmond64
Well, except the second NtO hasnt even got a photo of my car on it, surely this poses a problem for the NtO, isnt a photo proof of the contravention??

So any way, how do I go about appealing, and how do I use the examples I made a month ago about how they dont meet standards etc.
dave-o
Photos are not neccesary.

Proceed as per post #15
arichmond64
Ok, its back again.
I have appealed the NTO's, this was the 12th of December, and have only recieved a letter saying they are reviewing it about the 16th, cant quite remember because it didnt come to my uni address.
Its been over 31 days now, does this mean they have cancelled it, or are just being slow.
strollingplayer
They have 56 days. That said, if the 12th was the date you actually sent/posted your appeal, you may have missed the deadline.
arichmond64
Dam 56 days, I was hoping they forgot.
No I didnt miss the deadlines, I made sure of that. Got in by 2 or 3 days.
Cheers for the reply
Uncle Ned
im most likely wrong but would Geffen -v- Westminster City Council CASE No 1970002274 add any weight to the appeal on the basis of the wording in the NTO under the specified grounds?
strollingplayer
QUOTE (arichmond64 @ Thu, 14 Jan 2010 - 11:49) *
Dam 56 days, I was hoping they forgot.
No I didnt miss the deadlines, I made sure of that. Got in by 2 or 3 days.

You have to allow at least that for it to reach them, especially if you post it on a Saturday. It must be "received" by them, and "in the post" is not "received".

QUOTE (Uncle Ned @ Thu, 14 Jan 2010 - 12:55) *
im most likely wrong but would Geffen -v- Westminster City Council CASE No 1970002274 add any weight to the appeal on the basis of the wording in the NTO under the specified grounds?

FWIW, it's Geffen vs Kensington.
arichmond64
I did it online, so it was instant, and I recieved two confirmation emails and a letter by post saying it was being reviewed.
arichmond64
Ok, guys thanks very much for all your help.
Is it safe to say that these tickets have now been scapped??????
My appeals were on the 9th and 13th of December 2009.
dave-o
Yes, but you should get some confirmation from the council.
arichmond64
Good good.
Well it was 69 days ago, and someone said on here they only have 56 days, was this true?
I havnt had any letters off them as of yet, I had one a long time ago saying they wer looking into it, that was it.
Glacier2
The rogue charge cert is normally the next thing you get in cases where appeals have been apparently been ignored.
arichmond64
The what Glacier???????
What is this rogue charge cert?
dave-o
QUOTE (arichmond64 @ Tue, 16 Feb 2010 - 12:49) *
Good good.
Well it was 69 days ago, and someone said on here they only have 56 days, was this true?
I havnt had any letters off them as of yet, I had one a long time ago saying they wer looking into it, that was it.



Yes, 56 days from receipt.

I still advise contacting the council and demanding written confirmation that the PCN has been dropped. This will be invaluable in the "rogue CC" situation above.

If you haven't spoken to council parking teams before be ready for lots of buck-passing, unhelpfulness, and unfilfilled promises to contact you back. Be pro-active. Start each conversation with a new person by asking their name and title, and keep notes of this. Demand a solid date by which you will receive confirmation of cancellation.
arichmond64
Cheers Dave o, so I am right in thinking they are definately cancelled, since I havent had any contact from them within 56 days.

Also Dave o, I know there is already alot of stuff about private parking companys, but would you just have a quick look of my thread, im probably best just ignoring like all the advice says.
Thanks
Glacier2
QUOTE
Cheers Dave o, so I am right in thinking they are definately cancelled, since I havent had any contact from them within 56 days.


You can't assume anything.

The council may well claim that they sent you a Notice of Rejection (NOR) well within the 56 days. You would have then had 28 days to appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. If you failed to appeal a charge cert would be issued by the council. This is what we are warning you about. Charge certs can be overturned but you don't want the hassle.

Phone them up and ask the status of the PCNs. If they say they are still considering them that is their problem and not yours. If they issue a late NOR that is again their problem. It would mean a slam dunk easy win at the adjudicators.

Just because you have heard nothing don't assume anything.
bama
nail them in writing with confirmed delivery - by hand with a receipt or special delivery, recorded delivery is useless and often not recorded.
phone calls to a council mean nothing.

as above do no ass-u-me anything at all. stay in control yourself.
arichmond64
Nail them in writing?
What exactly do you mean? What am I supposed to say etc.
Glacier2
Ask simply what is happening. Quote the PCN numbers.
arichmond64
Well, I only live about 5 minutes walk from the offices, so do you recommend going down and speaking them, giving them a letter in person, or calling on the phone?
dave-o
I doubt you'll get a parking appeals person to come out and talk to you in person.

Phone them up. Take names and titles.
bama
"nail them in writing with confirmed delivery - by hand with a receipt or special delivery, recorded delivery is useless and often not recorded.
phone calls to a council mean nothing.

as above do no ass-u-me anything at all. stay in control yourself."


Write letter telling them that the 56 day limits has expired so the PCNs must be canceled (quote the actual PCN numbers).
also tell them that any other action from then other than cancellation will be unlawful.

get a receipt for the letter.
by all means post up your draft of it here first.

I would also fax it to chief exec and their head of legal in case they 'lose' your hand delivered letter.


as in nail them to the ground. leave any wriggle room at all and a council with squirm through it like a rat through a crack.
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