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Vague
Hi, I have been caught using a 'Cleartone', which was in the police car. I was pulled over by a marked car on the motorway and have now received a summons to court. The police have not ticked that they have video evidence and I do not recall them having a screen in the car, but I was pretty shaken. Does anyone know if all in car Cleartone devices are attached to a video system?

Thanks.
Hotel Oscar 87
Cleartone Puma is essentially an updated VASCAR and can be used standalone or be interfaced with a video recording/display system. In other words it could be either.
desktop_demon
Was the device a cleartone PUMA SE6 manual time and distance device?

Generally the modern "in car systems" all have video feeds or on screen displays that can be used to record/confirm actions taken. IIRC, the PUMA doesn't need to have a screen connection (although it usually does) - it may have a simple LED type display. It is a simple manually activated distance over time calculator similar perhaps to the older VASCAR and Police PIlot systems. It is currently the only type approved manual time&distance speedmeter.

If the police car was fitted with a video recorder then it is possible (but rather difficult) to obtain disclosure of the recording. Any application for disclosure will usually be resisted by the police/CPS as a matter of course.
Vague
Thanks you.

They didn't say in the statement what it was - just a Cleartone device. I am having problems getting them to tell me anything to be honest - they originally sent me a statement with the summons, and when I asked for them to send me all of the evidence, including anything they don't intend to rely on, they sent a letter back saying the only evidence they have is that statement. I intend to plead not guilty, but it feels like it's my word against theirs.

I'm getting so much advice from everyone & I don't know what to do!
desktop_demon
If you intend to plead not guilty then you will have plenty of time yet to prepare your case. The general procedure is that you plead not guilty by post - the court will adjourn to a later date and the "disclosure process" kicks in. You will need to write an outline defence statement and also a request for disclosure of the video (presuming it exists). It is almost certain you will need to go to court to apply for a disclosure order - which may or may not be granted. The police may even deny any such video exists which can be a bit of a show stopper. One strategy to consider is to identify the exact patrol car that was used on the day. Then you can ask for maintenance records to show if a video was fitted and working at the time.

I am sure that you will receive what help and guidance can be give from the members here if you decide to pursue your defence. You may use a solicitor or you may represent yourself as "Litigant in Person". It depends on how confident you feel.

Do you feel you have a defence to the allegation and indeed what did the occifers that pulled you over allege you had done?
Vague
The allegation is 111mph on the motorway. I have 1.5l Renault Megane, which has a top speed of 118mph. I would certainly have known about it if I had been driving that fast!! I am adamant that I was not doing anything close to that speed. I have no proof or evidence to say what speed I was doing, so I don't really know what my defence is???

At the moment I am intending to represent myself, but I have got a solicitor lined up in case I need him. He has actually advised me to do it myself.

I like the idea of asking which car it was. I am planning on writing to them over the weekend detailing exactly what information I want and I will add that to the list.

I received the original summons with only 10 days notice for the hearing, but I have had it put back by a week. If I don't have the information by then, do you think I should plead not guilty or ask for another adjournment on the grounds that they haven't sent me the information I have requested?
Hotel Oscar 87
Carrying on from d_d has had to say, it would be well to bear in mind that the hardest of cases to defend are those that arise from roadside "stops" such as yours. That is not to say that they cannot be defended but you will need to have your ducks in a row if you are to win. Assuming that at least part of the allegation is that of excess speed also bear in mind that as far as such offences on motorways are concerned then an officer's opinion is sufficient to obtain a conviction there is no requirement that it be corroborated though it would be good practice that it was.

EDIT: [Our posts "crossed", so to speak]. To clarify d_d's point you will not be able to obtain any further evidence from the prosecution until such time as you enter a plea of "not guilty" so I would suggest that you organise your various requests to hit the prosecution with once you've entered that plea. To be absolutely clear I am not inviting any comment from you as to your speed but if you accepted that you were speeding but that it wasn't anywhere near the 111mph alleged then the option of ontaining a "Newton Hearing" is open to you. This is essentially an application accepting that you commited the offence but at a lower speed. Needless to say, if you were able to get it below 100mph all the better. For guidance search for "Newton Hearing" - there have been plenty of posts here on that subject.
Vague
Really?! I could be disqualified based on someone's opinion??!! It's not looking good, is it?
Hotel Oscar 87
At the speed alleged, if convicted, you should expect a 7-56 day short-term ban OR 6 points, although at 111 you actually overtop the sentencing bracket and are into somewhat uncharted territory. With that in mind its likely to be a short-term ban and probably very much towards the top end if not at it.
Vague
I really appreciate your advice & comments. Thank you. I'm going to look in the the Newton Hearing...

I drive 40,000 miles a year & I have never had any points, and I need my car for work.

It's just so frustrating!! I know I wasn't driving that fast, but I feel so helpless!
viper
CAN I ASK WHAT FORCE THIS IS? May have some info dependent on force/area

Vague
It's Avon & Somerset - any information would be great. Thank you.
viper
Stopped in Herts. with this system. Was not impressed with evidence claimed 110 MPH, offered fixed penalty so I took it. But in the video it just looked like the officer racing up behind me and the speed going up. Did not appear to be any distance calculation
Vague
I wasn't doing 111mph - I honestly don't think my car could actually go that fast. I have written them a letter asking for them to disclose the video (if there is any), plus a whole load of other information. I hope they come forward with something more sensible like a fixed penalty, because it will be impossible for them to prove 111mph, simply because I wasn't.

Well done on getting yours down to a fixed penalty.
desktop_demon
Were there one or two officers in the car? Two officers makes it a statistically very difficult allegation to defeat. One might make a "mistake" but two can corroborate what the other saw.... and we all know which version the magistrates will prefer.

If any video existed it would seem to be a very important piece of evidence to examine. To obtain the video you will almost definitely need to go to court to apply for a disclosure order. If the prosecution/Police give you the video just by your letter asking to see it - it will be a miracle.
Mayhem007
The cleartone puma SE6 as has been stated is a type approved. As part of the type approval certificate the officer must be fully trained and competent to use the device. The police officer need not attend court and it is upto the defence to prove that the equipment was inaccurate or operated incorrectly.

The cleartone is superior to their predecessors as they are handheld, which means the officer can maintain visual contact with the target vehicle and still have relative control of his vehicle.

He does not need a video or second police officer to corroborate his opinion. The home office type approved equipment is sufficient in itself to secure a conviction.

Question is what distance and time did he measure to get the result of 111mph.

To emphasise previous posts you are not entitled to any disclosure of evidence until you plead not guilty. How disclosure of evidence applies to a newton trial, I am not too sure.

If you plead not guilty your case will get adjourned and may gone on for several months.

Disclosure of evidence.

1. Video evidence.
2. Calibration certificates of equipment.
3. Type approval certificate issued by home office.
4. Vehicle log of checks.
5. Certificate of square markers where equipment was calibrated.
6. Place of pre and post tour of duty checks.
Vague
I have to attend court next week to answer to an allegation of 111mph on the M5. This is an allegation that I strongly refute and I believe there are a number of errors in both procedure & paperwork.

I have already had the court date put back once, verbally requested evidence, and received a letter containing only the original statement they sent with my summons, so I have asked again, this time in writing.

I understand that I will probably have to go to court and plead not guilty in order to get disclosure, but can anyone tell me what I need to do & say when I am in court? Also, can they refuse to accept my request for disclosure & sentence me there & then?

Thank you.
jobo
what evidence do you want ?
Vague
There were two officers in the car. Can I ask for their training records? How can they prove their competence? How can I prove their incompetence?

They measured the speed over 0.6 miles between two bridges. The road was uphill and round a bend, you cannot see the second bridge from the 1st. Having revisited the road and the bridges on a number of occasions I am even more convinced that my little 1.5l car couldn't even go that fast uphill! Problem is - without trying it, how would I know?!

I don't want this to drag on for months, if I'm going to be banned I want to get it over and done with. It's causing me quite a lot of stress now because I just feel this is so unfair!



Vague
I have asked for video (if here is any), details of the calibration and the checks of the equipment, copies of the original notes that they took because they got a few details wrong (my birthdate & the time) and didn't write them in their little book - it was just an ordinary notebook, which I understand is not allowed...

andy_foster
You've started a duplicate thread!
Mayhem007
You need to send a defence statement refuting the alleged speed to the justices' clerk. If you search out arthurc he has templates in writing out a defence statement, but the defence statement is only applicable if you plead not guilty. If you do this and phone the clerk of the court offices, they will probably advise you that you need not attend.

In my case I did it A DAY before the hearing and it was accepted.

We can advise you on the disclosure of evidence after your hearing.

Not guilty plea will most certainly adjourn the case for trial.
Mayhem007
I didn't think I would have time to amend and post the attached, but hope it helps.

Best to modify to suit your case and send it off strainght away. I would then phone the clerk's and they may well advise that you need not attend...if you plead not guilty. You can always change your plea later after having received the disclosure of evidence.

Click to view attachment
southpaw82
 
QUOTE (Vague @ Wed, 7 Oct 2009 - 19:58) *
it was just an ordinary notebook, which I understand is not allowed...


You understand wrong.
Vague
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to say thank you to you all for helping me. I went to court last week and asked what I was supposed to be pleading to - over 70mph or 111mph. Even when I walked in I still didn't understand the allegation. I actually can't remember what they said 'cos I was so panicked, and I don't think I ever submitted an actual plea, I just said I wasn't driving at 111mph, but I was driving between 90mph & 100mph and I was sorry.

Anyway, long and short - I got 6 points and a £500 fine. I'm happy with that and think I deserved it. I've learnt my lesson!

Thanks again.

P.S. I didn't believe people when they said people actually go to court in tracksuits! I was the only person there in a suit - I couldn't believe it! Why????
CountryCousin
QUOTE (Vague @ Thu, 22 Oct 2009 - 21:32) *
P.S. I didn't believe people when they said people actually go to court in tracksuits! I was the only person there in a suit - I couldn't believe it! Why????


If you are a hardened car thief or burglar with previous convictions you or your legal aid provided solicitor may perhaps form a view that wearing a suit and tie does not cut any ice with the bench in terms of convincing them you are a normally law abiding citizen. Also such people usually disrespect authority in general and would probably have a major psychological hang up about wearing a suit and tie............

My own Not Guilty speeding trial took four hearings spread over Redhill, Crawley and Horsham magistrates courts. Only when I attended Redhill at 10am for the first hearing and had to wait five hours to get in to court were there a lot of tracksuits in evidence all throughout the early part of the morning. But at the three other hearings that all started at 2pm no tracksuitists were in evidence, perhaps because by then all trials had either finished (more serious trial cases seem to always be heard in the morning as they are perhaps expected to take at least a day) or were under way so nobody was still waiting outside the courts.

It sounds like you may in effect have achieved a Newton plea here. The courts must know that the method of speed measurement used in your case is not nearly as accurate as an LTI 20:20 laser or GATSO or Talivan camera and so perhaps be more amenable to accepting a plea of Guilty but to a lower speed. If they had accepted the speed claimed in the NIP you almost certainly would have got some kind of ban of anything up to 55 days.
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