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mpesm
Hi all,

Really mad with myself, put a visitors ticket on my mums car late last night so that it would be on there from early this morning and validate her parking there but realised when i got home and a lovely ticket was stuck on the windscreen I had put in yesterday's date! No excuse, deserved a ticket really (although we opposed the residents permit parking when they first did it). Anyway, posting the ticket here just in case I can get out of it. He has put the colour wrong but reading on here that does not matter really.

So, parked in a bay with a ticket valid for yesterday. They are the one day scratch card type where you select the day, date and month.

Any help would be gratefully received.


southpaw82
You had a permit displayed. Shouldn't the contravention have been "invalid permit" (Code 19 IIRC?).
mpesm
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 23 Sep 2009 - 18:19) *
You had a permit displayed. Shouldn't the contravention have been "invalid permit" (Code 19 IIRC?).


Thanks for the quick response! I did think that too, there was a permit - just valid for the wrong day.
bama
surely "The contravention did not occur"
mpesm
So do you think I have a case for disputing the ticket on the grounds that I did not commit the offence stated as the permit was "displayed" and valid for "that place"?

bama
the description does not use the word 'valid'.

you were in fact "displaying a ticket or voucher issued for that place" were you not ?
mpesm
Yep, had the ticket in the window clear as anything - and I am sure they take pictures these days too to back themselves up so that will clearly show the visitors pass.

I was so fed up when I got home but feeling quite excited now - so next thing - I know I now write to dispute but how shall I put it because in order to dispute this I have to admit the ticket was not valid. Any ideas?
southpaw82
Could show us photos of the signs and lines where you were parked.
mpesm
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 23 Sep 2009 - 23:12) *
Could show us photos of the signs and lines where you were parked.



Ok, below is the sign, the bay markings and my car parked as it was yesterday.





clark_kent
As mentioned before the contravention is incorrect, thee have been several adjudications that I know of stating it should be a '19' invalid permit. The signage is also incorrect unless its permits only 24/7 as the sign has no time on it, Council will state its in CPZ but has no relevance.
mpesm
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Thu, 24 Sep 2009 - 09:34) *
As mentioned before the contravention is incorrect, thee have been several adjudications that I know of stating it should be a '19' invalid permit. The signage is also incorrect unless its permits only 24/7 as the sign has no time on it, Council will state its in CPZ but has no relevance.



The residents bays are from 8-30am - 6.30pm monday to friday so you can park freely at the weekend. Had a good look around the road and can't see any times displayed. I had to check the councils web site to confirm the times.

So to clarify, I write telling them I dispute the ticket as the contravention stated in the ticket is not the offence I made. Do I admit the ticket displayed was invalid or just say I did display a visitors ticket (just don't mention it was for the wrong day)?
clark_kent
QUOTE (mpesm @ Thu, 24 Sep 2009 - 09:44) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Thu, 24 Sep 2009 - 09:34) *
As mentioned before the contravention is incorrect, thee have been several adjudications that I know of stating it should be a '19' invalid permit. The signage is also incorrect unless its permits only 24/7 as the sign has no time on it, Council will state its in CPZ but has no relevance.



The residents bays are from 8-30am - 6.30pm monday to friday so you can park freely at the weekend. Had a good look around the road and can't see any times displayed. I had to check the councils web site to confirm the times.

So to clarify, I write telling them I dispute the ticket as the contravention stated in the ticket is not the offence I made. Do I admit the ticket displayed was invalid or just say I did display a visitors ticket (just don't mention it was for the wrong day)?


Just state 'contravention did not occur' you had a permit, they are then snookered since all they can do is state it was not valid and agree it should have been a '19' invalid permit not a '12' no permit. Also point out the signs are incorrect as they do not state the time or days the bay is in operation and in fact state it's a 24/7 bay which is not the same as the traffic order.
mpesm
Thanks Clark_Kent and everyone else who have helped with this. I will let you know the outcome.
clark_kent
QUOTE (mpesm @ Thu, 24 Sep 2009 - 10:10) *
Thanks Clark_Kent and everyone else who have helped with this. I will let you know the outcome.



Bay markings are also wrong but the other two issues are much clearer points, bay markings are a bit of a gamble at adjudication.
mpesm



******UPDATE********


Seems Redbridge do not agree with me and said the ticket still stands. If I dispute then the cost rises to £100. I can't afford to lose £100 so I would appreciate someone letting me know how likely it is that I would win. Below is my letter to them and their reply.

Thanks all.




Neil B
Idiots.

Strong case for you.

I would wait for NtO.

(Note to other members -- I see they have changed their informal rejections to re-offer the full 14 days -- despite previously, repeatedly insisting their was nothing wrong with 10!)



mpesm
QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 8 Oct 2009 - 16:35) *
Idiots.

Strong case for you.

I would wait for NtO.

(Note to other members -- I see they have changed their informal rejections to re-offer the full 14 days -- despite previously, repeatedly insisting their was nothing wrong with 10!)



Thanks Neil
ManxRed
Nice of them to admit you did have a permit on display. If only all councils were that co-operative!!
clark_kent
I have known of several cases that have been won on just this point at PATAS AND if you chuck in the incorrect signage issue its almost a dead cert for a win, although nothing is 100% certain at PATAS
mpesm
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Thu, 8 Oct 2009 - 19:29) *
I have known of several cases that have been won on just this point at PATAS AND if you chuck in the incorrect signage issue its almost a dead cert for a win, although nothing is 100% certain at PATAS



Ok, so what should i say when I write back? Sorry for being dim - just want to get it right.
I am Weasel
Its a bit early in the morning for me to be eloquent but...


Dear Sir/Madam

Thankyou for your letter of 6th October where you have agreed that a resident's permit was displayed on my vehicle. Therefore I insist that you cancel the PCN because the contravention as stated on the PCN did not occur.

Futhermore ... [here is where I would described the issues about the bay markings & signage, but I have not yet digested the possible issues with them]

To continue to pursue such an obviously flawed case can only be considered unreasonable & vexatious. Therefore, if you do not cancel the PCN forthwith, I will have no hesitation in taking the matter before the independent adjudicator where I will also be asking for reimbusrement of my costs, due to the vexatious nature of your continued pursuit of this matter

Hugs & Kisses
mpesm
mpesm
QUOTE (I am Weasel @ Fri, 9 Oct 2009 - 09:49) *
Its a bit early in the morning for me to be eloquent but...


Dear Sir/Madam

Thankyou for your letter of 6th October where you have agreed that a resident's permit was displayed on my vehicle. Therefore I insist that you cancel the PCN because the contravention as stated on the PCN did not occur.

Futhermore ... [here is where I would described the issues about the bay markings & signage, but I have not yet digested the possible issues with them]

To continue to pursue such an obviously flawed case can only be considered unreasonable & vexatious. Therefore, if you do not cancel the PCN forthwith, I will have no hesitation in taking the matter before the independent adjudicator where I will also be asking for reimbusrement of my costs, due to the vexatious nature of your continued pursuit of this matter

Hugs & Kisses
mpesm


Ha ha, do you think the "Hugs & Kisses" will sway it?!
southpaw82
Send nothing back until you have the notice to owner. Then make formal representations. If Clark will pony up the names and numbers of some of these cases you can add them in to demonstrate that adjudicators are cancelling on this ground. I'd also quite like them for my database!
mpesm
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 9 Oct 2009 - 11:27) *
Send nothing back until you have the notice to owner. Then make formal representations. If Clark will pony up the names and numbers of some of these cases you can add them in to demonstrate that adjudicators are cancelling on this ground. I'd also quite like them for my database!



OK, my mum is the registered keeper so I have told her to expect the £100 notice. I take it this will have information about me appealing - do I send the appeal to Redbridge and then they decide if it should go to the adjudicator?
dave-o
QUOTE (mpesm @ Fri, 9 Oct 2009 - 11:50) *
I take it this will have information about me appealing - do I send the appeal to Redbridge and then they decide if it should go to the adjudicator?



All this info will be on the NTO. But yes, what you said is broadly the case.
mpesm
QUOTE (dave-o @ Fri, 9 Oct 2009 - 12:19) *
QUOTE (mpesm @ Fri, 9 Oct 2009 - 11:50) *
I take it this will have information about me appealing - do I send the appeal to Redbridge and then they decide if it should go to the adjudicator?



All this info will be on the NTO. But yes, what you said is broadly the case.



Thanks all. Will post back when my mum gets the NTO, and take it from there.
Howard0181
Neil

Thanks for spotting that about the change from 10 to 14 days.

As you know my wife has a case on this point which was going to Tribunal (we sent in all the evidence). We had a Personal Hearing but we could not make so not sure what has happened as Redbridge sent in a mass bundle of evidence.
mpesm
Just thought I would give you all an update on this.

I have received a letter from Redbridge confirming that there are sufficient grounds to cancel the ticket so a fantastic outcome!

Thank you to everyone who helped me but particually to clark_kent who provided a lot of his time and knowledge.

Merry Christmas!
x
emanresu
Well Done.

Now put in the the "Successes" thread so we can keep up the momentum.
clark_kent
QUOTE (mpesm @ Thu, 17 Dec 2009 - 12:53) *
Just thought I would give you all an update on this.

I have received a letter from Redbridge confirming that there are sufficient grounds to cancel the ticket so a fantastic outcome!

Thank you to everyone who helped me but particually to clark_kent who provided a lot of his time and knowledge.

Merry Christmas!
x


Ho Ho Ho Merry Christmas!
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