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Tug
Hi All

Just out of interest, I was convicted of speeding in 2006 (48 in a 40 zone) along a stretch of road that, the week before and unknown to me, had a new speed limit imposed (previously unlimited, now down to 40) - and it still p****s me off!

Two questions:

(i) How many years do the points stay on your licence before they are wiped clean (and is that the same period for no longer having to declare them for insurance)?

and

(ii) Where can I find out when the previous Road Traffic Order was revoked allowing the new RTO speed limit to be legal?

The reason I ask is, on another stretch of road in the same county, loads of people were done on a newly imposed limit stretch. Most people just accepted it, however one person did his homework and found that, despite the imposition of the new RTO, the old speed limit RTO had not been rescinded - hence the new limit was not legally enforceable!! The police tried to keep the reason for the dismissal quiet, but I discovered the reason why. Since then, I have tried (on-line) to find the repository of RTOs (in Wales) and have found no information on it at all - perhaps deliberately so. So, where can I find out whether the previous order WAS rescinded and WHEN? I would be grateful if anyone could enlighten me as to where to look.

It would be lovely to stick it to them if that did prove to be the case. Also, worth checking on your own case where there is a new speed limit.

Cheers

Tug
Bluedart
If it is outside of London, try looking on the county web site for area of the road you are wanting to investigate. Then look for traffic regulation orders or similar.
Good luck, as some of them are mine-fields.
Hotel Oscar 87
QUOTE (Tug @ Thu, 17 Sep 2009 - 11:22) *
(i) How many years do the points stay on your licence before they are wiped clean (and is that the same period for no longer having to declare them for insurance)?

Points for speeding may be used to count towards a "totting" ban for 3 years but have to remain on your licence for a further year. At the end of 4 year period you can apply to have them removed. The vast majority of insurance companies require that you declare penalty points for 5 years.

QUOTE (Tug @ Thu, 17 Sep 2009 - 11:22) *
and

(ii) Where can I find out when the previous Road Traffic Order was revoked allowing the new RTO speed limit to be legal?

As BD has indicated some counties have an online resource whilst others have absolutely nothing. In such situations to view the relevant documents would require a personal visit to the relevant council offices (local highway authority) - usual a good idea to give them some notice so that they can have the papers ready or you might have a long wait. To assist your search it might be a good idea to call the documents by their correct name - TRO's - Traffic Regulation Orders.
andy_foster
QUOTE (Tug @ Thu, 17 Sep 2009 - 11:22) *
Just out of interest, I was convicted of speeding in 2006


Just out of interest indeed.
You are massively out of time to appeal.

QUOTE
...unknown to me, had a new speed limit imposed (previously unlimited, now down to 40)
<...>
(ii) Where can I find out when the previous Road Traffic Order was revoked allowing the new RTO speed limit to be legal?


Was there a system of streetlighting? If not, and if the limit was the NSL, then there would probably not have been a previous TRO.
The 'new' TRO would state when it came into force, and should explicitly revoke any previous TRO.

CountryCousin
Your resentment against this offence this far on is probably better mobilised by writing letters or emails to your local newspaper(s) or to your local councillors indicating why you think the constant lowering of speed limits including this speed limit is not in the public interest and is criminalising normally law abiding citizens and affecting economic productivity for anyone who drives for a living by making average journey times in the UK constantly increase. One can only hope that in the end there will be a backlash like there was in the USA and local authorities here will start increasing and not decreasing speed limits. Or it may start to happen automatically once a Conservative government replaces this current repressive New Labour one who constantly blackmails and encourages local authorities to lower their speed limits.

Regarding the Traffic Regulation Order you could certainly still get a copy to satisfy your curiosity. However Surrey County Council charged me £20 for the privilege of supplying a copy of the one for the road I was detected on (they insisted on supplying an official copy even though I didn't ask for that but I expect that was just to be bloody minded so it would cost me more money). You just need to make contact with the Enquiries unit or Highways unit of your local authority and ask them what is the process for being supplied with a copy of the TRO in effect on this particular road. It may well be that other less money minded and speed limit lowering obsessed highways authorities than Surrey will provide you with a copy of the TRO without any charge.
bama
I think LGA 1972 says 10 pence.
CountryCousin
QUOTE (bama @ Fri, 18 Sep 2009 - 02:50) *
I think LGA 1972 says 10 pence.


Can you quote me the exact section bama as I would be perfectly happy to write to Surrey County Council and demand the return of my £19.90.

No need now as I found it myself:-

From http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?...filesize=131207

QUOTE
Local Government Act 1972 (c.70) Main body Part XI General Provisions as to Local Authorities Documents and notices, etc.

224. Arrangements by principal councils for custody of documents. — [F1 (1)] Without prejudice to the powers of the custos rotulorum to give directions as to the documents of any county, a principal council shall make proper arrangements with respect to any documents which belong to or are in the custody of the council or any of their officers. [ F2 (2) This section applies to a joint authority . . . F3 as it applies to a principal council.] [F4 (3) In subsection (1) above “county”, in relation to Wales, means a preserved county.]

225. Deposit of documents with proper officer of authority, etc. (1) In any case in which a document of any description is deposited with the proper officer of a local authority, or with the chairman of a parish or community council or with the chairman of a parish meeting, pursuant to the standing orders of either House of Parliament or to any enactment or instrument, the proper officer or chairman, as the case may be, shall receive and retain the document in the manner and for the purposes directed by the standing orders or enactment or instrument, and shall make such notes or endorsements on, and give such acknowledgments and receipts in respect of, the document as may be so directed.

(2) All documents required by any enactment or instrument to be deposited with the proper officer of a parish or community shall, in the case of a parish or community not having a separate parish or community council, be deposited in England with the chairman of the parish meeting or in Wales with the proper officer of the [F5 principal council]. [ F6 (3) In this section “local authority” includes a joint authority F7 . . ..]

228. Inspection of documents.

(5) Subject to any provisions to the contrary in any other enactment or instrument, a person interested in any document deposited as mentioned in section 225 above may, at all reasonable hours, inspect and make copies thereof or extracts therefrom on payment to the person having custody thereof of the sum of 10p for every such inspection, and of the further sum of 10p for every hour during which such inspection continues after the first hour.


(6) A document directed by this section to be open to inspection shall be so open at all reasonable hours and, except where otherwise expressly provided, without payment.


(7) If a person having the custody of any such document— (a) obstructs any person entitled to inspect the document or to make a copy thereof or extract therefrom in inspecting the document or making a copy or extract, (b) refuses to give copies or extracts to any person entitled to obtain copies or extracts, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F19 level 1 on the standard scale].


I'm not clear whether a Traffic Regulation Order is "a document direct by this section to be open to inspection", in which case no payment appears to be required?
format
Well that's all very interesting CC, but the 10p charge rate mentioned is for inspecting it and/or copying it in person. As I understand it a copy was requested to be sent to the requestor so charges can be made for the supply of the document; the regs you quote don't therefore apply to this charge.
CountryCousin
QUOTE (format @ Fri, 18 Sep 2009 - 10:47) *
Well that's all very interesting CC, but the 10p charge rate mentioned is for inspecting it and/or copying it in person. As I understand it a copy was requested to be sent to the requestor so charges can be made for the supply of the document; the regs you quote don't therefore apply to this charge.


All I asked for was how I was able to see the content of the Traffic Regulation Order that set the 50mph speed limit in effect on the A24 Mickleham Bypass. I did not ask to be sent a physical copy of the TRO and certainly not a certified colour copy of the original document by post.

As it so happens the officer at Surrey County Council who I made my request to view a copy of the TRO to first sent me a copy of the Dorking Road (A24) Mickleham (50 MPH SPEED LIMIT) ORDER 1996 and when I queried why this was different from the name of the TRO listed in the summons in my case they then told me that the 1996 order had in fact been rescinded and replaced by the 1999 TRO covering a longer length of the A24 route. As it so happens the lady concerned at Surrey CC on each occasion first scanned and emailed me a copy of the TRO (the low cost environmentally friendly solution) almost immediately the same day but then insisted on also making colour photocopies and having them signed as being an official copy and sent to me by post, even though I did not request or ask for that. It was made perfectly clear to me that my only way to get access to the TRO was to pay the County Council £20 and I was not offered an option of visiting their offices or viewing a copy of the document on their website. The high cost only route of a colour officially verified copy of the document was the only one offered to me by Surrey County Council.

I would also be very interested to know why exactly you seem to be taking so much interest in this matter and appear to think that you know so much about it?
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