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newlandspud
Hi, my first post, sorry if it has already been covered elsewhere but I couldn't find it if so...

In May I parked on a road within a Wandsworth CPZ with resident parking bays and yellow lines between the parking bays. Along the road there are timeplates stating the yellow lines are enforced between 8.30am-6.30pm apart from 1 timeplate at 1 end of the road which states they are enforced between 7am-7pm. If you access the road from the other end you clearly don't pass this sign.

I had a PCN issued at 7.03 for parking on the yellow line, I took some photos of the timeplates and sent them to Wandsworth council appealing the PCN stating that at no point had I passed a sign stating the yellow lines had changed from 8.30-6.30 to 7am-7pm.

They have rejected this because I was parked near to the end of the road where the 7am-7pm sign is situated and they say these signs overide any other CPZ signs. They state I am parked 6 meters from the sign but it was at least 20 meters away and because I entered the road from the other end I never passed this sign (I did pass the other 3 or 4 signs stating 8.30-6.30).

There are a few other minor points that may back me up if I appeal -

- the 7-7pm sign is only on one side of the road, I believe they should be on both sides of the road???
- the yellow line I am parked on does not have the T endings at either end of it, I believe this makes it technically invalid???
- the PCN was issued at 7.03 so how did the issuer know I wasn't loading/unloading, I believe you can be loading/unloading for up to 20mins??? (i am not claiming i was doing this, I wasn't!)

Please could you let me know if you think I have a good case for appealing this further?

Thanks a lot for your help,
James
dave-o
Councils often routinely reject appeals all the way to adjudication.

If you were unable to reasonably see a sign then you have a case.

I'd like to see a pic of the PCN and pics/measurements of the bay/signs too, if possible.
Teufel
the plates override the CPZ signs

see PATAS case cukier
newlandspud
Thanks for replies, here is the PCN and some photos of signs etc...



and here is the 7am-7pm sign -



This is where I was parked (on the opposite side of the road to the left of the micra). The timeplate pictured above is just further to the left of the photo below (clearly more than 6meters away as stated by the council)


and one more where the end of yellow line meets the parking bay, at the other end of the parking bay is a timeplate that says 8.30am-6.30pm....


If you need any more photos or details let me know! Thanks
lomcovaks
I'd get your tape measure out too - the bay itself looks pants.

The dashed markings parallel to the kerb of a 1028.4 bay should be a maximum of 2.4 metres apart. As a Nissan Micra is 3.74 metres long, I'd say that the markings are far too wide apart for the bay to be legal.

It adds another arrow to your quiver.
clark_kent
QUOTE (lomcovaks @ Tue, 9 Jun 2009 - 20:35) *
I'd get your tape measure out too - the bay itself looks pants.

The dashed markings parallel to the kerb of a 1028.4 bay should be a maximum of 2.4 metres apart. As a Nissan Micra is 3.74 metres long, I'd say that the markings are far too wide apart for the bay to be legal.

It adds another arrow to your quiver.



How would a non compliant day further down the street have any bearing on a yellow line contravention?? wacko.gif
newlandspud
Does the ticket look to have been issued correctly?
Does the yellow line without the T ending make it non-compliant?

I have to decide wheather to appeal this or pay up in the next few days so your advice is appreciated, thanks for your help!

dave-o
The ticket is OK

Missing T-bars is marginal. I believe there have been one or more victories at PATAS/PATROL regarding this, but there have alse been ones where it has been considered de minimis, and not accepted.
newlandspud
OK thanks, my last question...

..are parking bays enough to seperate 2 yellow lines with different time restrictons? There is no time plate stating 7am-7pm at the beginning of the line where I was parked (see photos). The last time plate I passed stated 8.30-6.30, is it my responsibility to walk down the road to check if there are any different time plates?

Thanks
newlandspud
Does anyone have an opinion on my last question...?

I need to pay up by this weekend to get discounted rate and am thinking that's the best option because not confident about winning an appeal. Thanks for your help...
dave-o
If you think that you could not reasonably have seen the sign, then you have a possible case. It would probably go all the way to adjudication though, and it's not a dead cert.

That said, there is a fair chance that the council may mess up future paperwork, or just not want to turn up if you choose a personal hearing on saturday.
newlandspud
In June I received a PCN for parking on a yellow line, I sent Wandsworth council an email appealing it which they rejected by return email. I disagreed with their reasoning and said I wanted to appeal with PATAS and so they sent me a 'rejection' letter in the post.

In the 'notice of rejection' letter the title states 'notice of rejection of representations against the notice to owner'. This suggests they have sent a notice to owner but I have not received one.

My question is - are they obliged to send a notice to owner?

Thanks
dave-o
Assuming it's a normal PCN, not a reg 10 one then yes, they are meant to send an NTO and have probably shot themselves in the foot.

But we need to see yoru documents to be sure. Scan/photo, host and post pics of anything they have sent you, and copy/paste any emails they have sent.
newlandspud
Hi Dave, thanks for your quick reply, here are the emails and letter that I have received from them, my comments and any edits are in red.
[b]

This is their response to my initial email appeal -[/b]

Dear Mr C........



<H3 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify">Penalty Charge Notice Number: WA------------</H3><H3 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify">Vehicle Registration: -------------</H3><H3 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify">Date Issued: 21 May 2009</H3><H3 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify">Location of Contravention: TAYBRIDGE ROAD SW11</H3>

I refer to your enquiry received on 22 May 2009 regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).



The PCN was issued as the vehicle in question was parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. The hours of enforcement are Monday to Saturday, 7.00am to 7.00pm. The ticket was issued at 7.03am, which is within these hours.



A vehicle is not allowed to park on a yellow line when restrictions are in force other than for the purposes of loading or unloading, as permitted by legislation, or for allowing passengers to board or alight, in which case the driver should not leave the vehicle.



I have noted your comments regarding the signage on Taybridge Road. Notes from the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) show that your vehicle was parked approximately 6 metres from the appropriate signage. Timeplates for yellow lines overrule Controlled Parking Zone restrictions. I have viewed the photographs taken by the CEO and am satisfied that the signage is clear. Therefore unfortunately the above PCN cannot be cancelled.



To avoid future penalties I suggest that you view all appropriate signage and ensure that your vehicle is legally parked before leaving it unattended. The sign in this case was displayed above the yellow line, at the junction of Taybridge Road and Lavender Hill.



CONT…



As your enquiry was received within the discount period the amount of £60.00 will be accepted in full settlement of the charge if payment is received within 14 days of the date of this letter. Your cheque or postal order should be made payable to “Wandsworth Borough Council”, clearly identified with the Notice number and sent to the following address:



Wandsworth Borough Council (Parking),

P.O. Box No. 4405,

London

SW18 2XN.



Alternatively, you may pay by debit or credit card over the telephone, by ringing 0845 130 5758 at any time.



If payment is not received as detailed, I shall assume that you wish to pursue the matter and shall arrange for a Notice to Owner to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle so that formal representations may be made. Should these be rejected, the registered keeper of the vehicle will then be afforded the opportunity to appeal to the Parking Adjudicator.



I should point out that, should you decide to take this course of action, on the expiry of the discount period you will forfeit the right to pay the Penalty Charge at the lower rate and the full charge of £120.00 will be due.





Yours sincerely



<H3 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify">Lauren Roberts

I replied to that with the email below -

Sent: 19 June 2009 12:47
To: DTS Parking Enquiries
Subject: RE: WA----------
FAO: Lauren Roberts



Thank you for your response, however some of the facts you have provided are incorrect. Firstly the timeplate is far further away than 6 meters, secondly the road marking do not comply with regulations and make it very confusing which time plates apply to the area where I was parked. In light of this I have taken advice and it has been recommended I appeal this with PATAS. I believe you need to send me a Notice of Rejection letter and an appeal form to send to PATAS, I have not received either of these so please send to me asap.



Regards






They acknowledged my email with this response -

<H1 style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt">TMA REPS</H1>Thank you for your email.

Your email will be logged as formal representations.

Your case has been placed on hold pending our investigations.

A response will be sent within 56 days.



Steven Essex

Parking Officer

And then a couple of weeks later I received this letter in the post -




I never received a 'notice to owner', can they still send this now or is it too late? If it's too late then do I still go to PATAS and use this as part of my appeal or do I notify the council and hope they cancel the PCN? Here is the PCN in case you need that as well -



Thanks for your help....



</H3>
dave-o
Well, that NOR clearly says it is "in response to representations against the Notice to Owner".
You haven't shown the other side of the PCN, but i imagine it says you will recieve a NTO.

Looks like a very clear "Procedural Impropriety" appeal to me, but i have never dealt with a case exactly like this, so hopefully another member can give you more specific appeal instructions.
Neil B
What date was the first rejection?
newlandspud
My first email appeal was rejected on 3rd June by return email (the rejection email is the first email pasted into my previous post). I replied to the rejection on 22nd June and received the official 'notice of rejection' letter in the post on 15/16th July.
Thanks
Glacier2
QUOTE
I replied to the rejection

Muppets took that as a formal appeal.
newlandspud
So is this also a "Procedural Impropriety", should they wait for a formal appeal before sending notice of rejection? What makes an appeal 'formal'?

How should I respond to procedural errors, should I use it to back up an appeal to PATAS or notify council requesting them to cancel the PCN based on these errors?

Thanks
Glacier2
Appeal to PATAS now. Do not under any circumstances contact the council.
dave-o
Happy to help you write your PATAS appeal if you like, and you don't get a better offer.
bama
17.9 The EA must also notify the Appellant by letter of its intention not to contest the appeal,

as per http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...bruary_2009.doc

IMV any and every PATAS appeal should reference the above guide and make a clear statement to the expectation that both PATAS and the EA will follow it.
newlandspud
When sending my Notice of Appeal to PATAS I gave them a different correspondance address to that of the registered address of the vehicle. PATAS used the 'new' address to send me details of the appeal hearing but the council have sent a copy of their evidence to the registered address of the vehicle.

Should they have used the correspondence address that I gave in the appeal form or are they correct to send it to the registered address? Basically can I claim they havn't sent me copy of evidence?

Thanks


newlandspud
I have a PATAS hearing later this week, part of my appeal is based on 'procedural impropriety' because they never sent me a NTO that they refer to in the notice of rejection.

In the evidence they have sent PATAS they claim a NTO was sent and have supplied a print out of the NTO. They say there is "no evidence to suggest it wasn't received".

Will this just be my word against theirs or do they have to somehow prove it was posted?

Thanks!
dave-o
*EDIT*

Comment no longer makes sense after threads merged.
MartinHP71

Have you specifically told the council to send information to your new address ?
newlandspud
The copy of the NTO is dated 18th June, by absolute coincidence I emailed them on 19th June disputing an email they sent me. Because this email was dated after the NTO they say took this as my formal appeal so sent me a NOR.

They say the fact my email was sent the day after the NTO was created suggests it was received, but even if it was posted on the day it was issued I doubt I would have received it the next day. And one more thing - in my email on 19th June I even mention I have not received NTO!
newlandspud
No, I havn't informed council but was expecting the evidence to be sent to the correspondence address of the appeal, the council receive a copy of the appeal form which will clearly state my correspondence address. Maybe this isn't reasonable, I just wanted to check what you guys thought...
Teufel
a personal hearing would help in cases like this

do you have other strong grounds ?
Teufel
did you get the evidence ?

even if not it is only a claim for a delay - call patas asap

newlandspud
Hi, it is a personal hearing.

I have other grounds - lines/signs are not marked properly. I have all the stuff I need for the lines bit, just not sure now if the procedural impropriety will have any impact because they say they sent the NTO.

Will have to rely on other grounds, i'll let you know how it goes!
newlandspud
I did get the evidence because it's my parents house that the car is registered at so they forwarded it on to me. I was just wondering if it should have been sent to the correspondence address and therefore another factor to backup my case.

Thanks
MartinHP71

IMHO its not something to back up your case. You have the evidence, the council have (with no instructions to the contrary) have sent the information to registered address on their files where previous legal notices (I presume) have been served.
andy_foster
Is this the same case as your other 3 threads?
newlandspud
Yes, the same case as my other posts, I put them on different posts because different subjects, not sure if thats correct thing to do...
Glacier2
Not it is not.

1 case 1 thread.

Simples as a mearkat once said.
andy_foster
QUOTE (newlandspud @ Mon, 7 Sep 2009 - 12:40) *
Yes, the same case as my other posts, I put them on different posts because different subjects, not sure if thats correct thing to do...


No. "One case, one thread"
Teufel
one fredd one case tongue.gif
bama
6.6 The EA must note from the NOA the address stated by the Appellant for correspondence. It is either the address, if any, entered under “Address for correspondence”, or if none is specified there, it is the address entered under “Address”. The address so specified by the Appellant, and only this, is the proper address for correspondence and service on the Appellant of the evidence.

Their emphasis.
Always check out http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...bruary_2009.doc
for PATAS cases.
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