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events
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2009
Date of the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - the A90 road, Edinburgh between Burnshot Flyover and Cammo Road
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - My husband is registered keeper/owner
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons -

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Do you know who was driving? - Yes

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • Complete the Section 172 statement naming the person you believe was driving.
    You aren't incriminating them - they'll receive a NIP to complete themselves in due course.

    (You might also like to let that person know that they can expect to receive one, and give them the link to this Wizard for when it arrives!)

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:57:11 +0100

Sorry... I think I might have filled in incorrectly

I am the registered owner of the vehicle (husband) and my wife was driving the vehicle
ict_guy
We will need a little more information if you want some advice/help. What is the alleged offence?
I am Weasel
So you have received a NIP in yur name.

You should fill it in naming your wife as the driver and return it within the sepcified time period. Your wife will then receive a NIP in her own name & can deal with it appropriately
events
Yes that is correct... Thanks guys... will return and ask for it to be put in the good (not so good) lady's name
Lynnzer
QUOTE (events @ Fri, 4 Sep 2009 - 23:47) *
Yes that is correct... Thanks guys... will return and ask for it to be put in the good (not so good) lady's name

Not just yet though.......
Wait until day 26 (if day 28 is a working day) you'll gain nothing by an early reply. Send it recorded delivery.
The wife can then just complete the form, and send it back UNSIGNED again on day 26 by recorded delivery.
Following that they may return it to her asking her to sign it or may send a constable round asking her to sign it. Of course she won't be in when they do come.
Scotland is different from us south of the border, (yeah, even us Geordies).
An unsigned S172 request has yet to be taken to court to test the legality for laying a speeding charge. Plenty of posts on here about it.
I am Weasel
If considering going the unsigned route, then why doesn't the OP send his NIP off unsigned naming the wife. If the BiB act upon this by sending the wife a NIP, then surely there is a procedural impropriety as the OP hasn't officially named the wife yet. If they decide to pursue the OP, ten he can fill it in signed but it will have wasted more time

- just a thought; don't know whether it has any credence
southpaw82
QUOTE (I am Weasel @ Sat, 5 Sep 2009 - 14:46) *
If considering going the unsigned route, then why doesn't the OP send his NIP off unsigned naming the wife. If the BiB act upon this by sending the wife a NIP, then surely there is a procedural impropriety as the OP hasn't officially named the wife yet. If they decide to pursue the OP, ten he can fill it in signed but it will have wasted more time

- just a thought; don't know whether it has any credence

Whilst I follow your reasoning I don't think it's sound. The requirement to sign the document comes about because that is how it becomes admissible evidence of who was driving - ie it is sent to a person and they name themselves and sign it. This is then admissible evidence. 


An unsigned s. 172 can still be used to obtain the details of another possible driver and so a subsequent s. 172 can be sent to them. Signing only becomes important if it needs to be admitted into evidence.

As you say, it may well make them waste more time by insisting on having it signed if they don't cotton onto the above.

events
On the last 3 posts... I am really confused now, I appreciate your advice, but what should I exactly do?
I am Weasel
Fill in and return the NIP as advised initially (either signed or unsigned)

There is a "loophole" in Scottish Law which has not (yet) been closed whereby the information you fill in can be used to avoid a charge of failing to furnish details, but the fact that no signature is given means that it can't be used in evidence (or something like that; I'm not too clear on how it works). Maybe you could search the forums for "unsigned" to discover the proces & its effects

  • It is this course of action that Lynnzer was recommending your wife take
  • I was merely exploring the idea of extending the concept of "the unisgned route" to your NIP in the hope that it might cause sufficent delay to the process to help time-out the offence (6 months)
  • Southpaw82 was suggesting that my idea would have little or no effect


I hope that this clarifies things a bit & apologise if I have helped confuse you. It is easy for people who have been active here (for even a short while) to assume newbies have the same level of knowledge on these matters as ourselves
events
Thanks for everyone helping out... much appreciated

Will report back and keep you posted
events
Sent unsigned form back stating it was my wife driving the vehicle by recorded delivery on day 26 which was the 30/09/09, I received a reminder yesterday 03/10/09 from the Police... when I look up the Royal Mail website and enter tracking number it states Item BR*********GB was posted at ************************ on 30/09/09and is being progressed through our network for delivery. The only thing that worries me is there are postal strikes on at the moment and things might be delayed. Anything I should follow up?
I am Weasel
I would think that you now have a pretty solid defence against any action that might be taken against you for failing to furnish since you have evidence that you have posted your response. My view is that you have 3 options
  1. Ignore the reminder as you have fulfilled your duties under S.172
  2. Fill in the reminder exactly as before & return it - again using special delivery
  3. Reply stating that you have alreday filled in the foms & sent it off


I would go for option 1 myself as it provides the least opportunity for accidentally incriminating yourself/wife. I am no legal expert and others may have a different view which they might wish to express
andy_foster
QUOTE (I am Weasel @ Sun, 4 Oct 2009 - 11:11) *
  1. Ignore the reminder as you have fulfilled your duties under S.172
  2. Fill in the reminder exactly as before & return it - again using special delivery
  3. Reply stating that you have alreday filled in the foms & sent it off


If you can prove that the response was posted, but the court finds that it was not delivered, have you satisfied the initial requirement to provide the information?
Does this depend on the stated requirements on the notice?

If the initial requirement is deemed to have been complied with, is the 'reminder' a separate legal requirement, or merely a reminder?
If it is deemed to be a legal requirement in its own right, would sending the response to the initial requirement negate the second requirement?

I don't think that there are any definitive rulings on these questions (north or south of the border), but there appear to be many ways in which option 1 could go horribly wrong.
events
What's worrying me is the Postal Strikes http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/scotland...fter.5683501.jp

I have the receipt to say I have posted it on the 30th and it states exactly who to.

I think I will just wait to see what happens.
events
Can anyone clarify my current situation... the Nip was re-issued in my wife's name, dated the 8th October it arrived with us on the 9th, sent it back unsigned, registered post on the Tuesday 3rd Nov (day 26)... I confirmed that it was signed for received on Wednesday 4th Nov (day 27)... Heard nothing and we are ending day 28... is my wife in the clear?
Hotel Oscar 87
No. The 28 days only comes into play as and when your wife receives her own NIP.
events
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Thu, 5 Nov 2009 - 22:29) *
No. The 28 days only comes into play as and when your wife receives her own NIP.


It was in her name
MartinHP71

What do you think your wife is in the clear from ?
events
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Thu, 5 Nov 2009 - 23:26) *
What do you think your wife is in the clear from ?


I thought that would be pretty obvious... sorry for asking for advice!
MartinHP71
QUOTE (events @ Thu, 5 Nov 2009 - 23:36) *
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Thu, 5 Nov 2009 - 23:26) *
What do you think your wife is in the clear from ?


I thought that would be pretty obvious... sorry for asking for advice!


It was a legitimate question. Do you think your wife in the clear from the original offence ? or from returning the S172 request ?
events
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Thu, 5 Nov 2009 - 23:39) *
QUOTE (events @ Thu, 5 Nov 2009 - 23:36) *
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Thu, 5 Nov 2009 - 23:26) *
What do you think your wife is in the clear from ?


I thought that would be pretty obvious... sorry for asking for advice!


It was a legitimate question. Do you think your wife in the clear from the original offence ? or from returning the S172 request ?


I don't know, that's why I am here asking for advice, What do you think?
big_mac
I am guessing that you returned it unsigned, without actually undestanding why you were doing that, is that correct?
Perhaps you could search this forum for 'unsigned', as was previously suggested, and see what you can find.

But, and I have only read a few posts here, I think that if your wife can now avoid being questioned by a policeman until 6 months after the offence, then they will be unable to prosecute, which is why the 'unsigned' option was suggested to you.
events
I have to admit I am not clued up on this and that is why I am on here asking for advice... if anyone can give me an accurate answer as to "What happens now" it would be appreciated... remember I am in Scotland also.... Many Thanks
MartinHP71
QUOTE (events @ Fri, 6 Nov 2009 - 09:48) *
I have to admit I am not clued up on this and that is why I am on here asking for advice... if anyone can give me an accurate answer as to "What happens now" it would be appreciated... remember I am in Scotland also.... Many Thanks



Right you wife has returned the S172 request to the scammers and you have proof of delivery of this (so keep this in a very safe place)

In Scotland you are still able to send this back unsigned. With it being unsigned they cannot use it in court to show that your wife was the driver so they will potentially try a number of routes.

They may send the form back with a letter saying oh dear you forgot to sign but look we are being nice and giving you a second chance - don't sign

They could send some local policemen around to your house and ask to speak with your wife and then ask her if she was the driver - so basically you wife needs to not answer the door to any policemen for the next 6 months and which point the possibility of her being prosecuted for the original speeding offence will end.

Hope that helps.
events
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Fri, 6 Nov 2009 - 10:23) *
QUOTE (events @ Fri, 6 Nov 2009 - 09:48) *
I have to admit I am not clued up on this and that is why I am on here asking for advice... if anyone can give me an accurate answer as to "What happens now" it would be appreciated... remember I am in Scotland also.... Many Thanks



Right you wife has returned the S172 request to the scammers and you have proof of delivery of this (so keep this in a very safe place)

In Scotland you are still able to send this back unsigned. With it being unsigned they cannot use it in court to show that your wife was the driver so they will potentially try a number of routes.

They may send the form back with a letter saying oh dear you forgot to sign but look we are being nice and giving you a second chance - don't sign

They could send some local policemen around to your house and ask to speak with your wife and then ask her if she was the driver - so basically you wife needs to not answer the door to any policemen for the next 6 months and which point the possibility of her being prosecuted for the original speeding offence will end.

Hope that helps.


Hi Martin... that's great!... I now know where I stand... thanks for advice.
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