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ronnyboy1977
Hi,

I am new here so forgive me if I have posted wrongly but was wondering if anybody could help. My car was towed by Laqmbeth council this evening from Wandsworth Road where it was in a parking bay on the main road. The parking sign said residents permit or pay at machine between 10am and 4pm although there were many signs for different reasons and it was a touch confusing.

The PCN says car observed at from 17:39 and nothing in the "To" field.

When I collected my car the Authorisation for Removal said time of 17:59 but my receipt had no time of removal on it.

I am trying to upload photos of everything I have received so will have those up asap but had a couple of quick questions:

Is the 30 minutes needed to wait before removal the time from observed ending to the time authorised for removal?

Is giving me a receipt without a time removed an error on their part?

Is the fact that the PCN has no "observed to" time an error?

Finally, how do I get the photos and removal time etc. from Lambeth council?

Thanks very much in advance and please bear with me for the photos!


It is also worth noting that I was parking OUTSIDE of the enforcement time on the parking sign but the parking sign was under a bunch of other signs relating to yellow lines, loading etc, although I was in a parking bay and not a loading bay - confusing to say the least
clark_kent
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Tue, 1 Sep 2009 - 21:40) *
Hi,

I am new here so forgive me if I have posted wrongly but was wondering if anybody could help. My car was towed by Laqmbeth council this evening from Wandsworth Road where it was in a parking bay on the main road. The parking sign said residents permit or pay at machine between 10am and 4pm although there were many signs for different reasons and it was a touch confusing.

The PCN says car observed at from 17:39 and nothing in the "To" field.

When I collected my car the Authorisation for Removal said time of 17:59 but my receipt had no time of removal on it.

I am trying to upload photos of everything I have received so will have those up asap but had a couple of quick questions:

Is the 30 minutes needed to wait before removal the time from observed ending to the time authorised for removal?

Is giving me a receipt without a time removed an error on their part?

Is the fact that the PCN has no "observed to" time an error?

Finally, how do I get the photos and removal time etc. from Lambeth council?

Thanks very much in advance and please bear with me for the photos!


It is also worth noting that I was parking OUTSIDE of the enforcement time on the parking sign but the parking sign was under a bunch of other signs relating to yellow lines, loading etc, although I was in a parking bay and not a loading bay - confusing to say the least


The 'bunch of other signs' didn't happen to say no parking 4-7pm by any chance?
The Rookie
I suspect this is another of Lambeths belived to be illegal signs where it says no parking except for resdients OR P&D 10-4, its not a legal derivative and very confusing, its MEANT to portray that only residents may park there outside the P&D time, but it fails, and isn't shown as a legal sign derivative.

Simon
ronnyboy1977
From memory there was a yellow sign which I believe relates to the yellow line which was the usual no parking 7-7 and then another one for loading saying no loading 7-10 and 4-7 or something like that.

My point though is that I was in a parking bay and not a loading bay and therefore the parking regulations should apply, no?

If that isn;t the case then why have confusing signs? If there is no parking 7-7 due to the yellow sign then surely the 10-4 is redundant as you wil pay to park between 10 and 4 but the council can claim a sign says no parking at all 7-7....

I am interested to know the legal view on this. For what it's worth, the ticket machine I parked right next to said "see parking sign for hours of use" and I have a photo which I am uploading (but still struggling)
dave-o
It would be best if you show us pictures of the ticket, the signs and the bay markings.
ronnyboy1977
Here is my attempt at the pictures - sorry there are loads but I read a lot of posts saying to put everything - hope it works!





















Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

dave-o
We need the PCN and appeals docs.

Need to see the date and time on the receipt.

Pics of the bay would be good.
ronnyboy1977




these didn't work the first time
Matts Dad
What other road signs were there?
clark_kent
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 07:41) *
From memory there was a yellow sign which I believe relates to the yellow line which was the usual no parking 7-7 and then another one for loading saying no loading 7-10 and 4-7 or something like that.

My point though is that I was in a parking bay and not a loading bay and therefore the parking regulations should apply, no?

If that isn;t the case then why have confusing signs? If there is no parking 7-7 due to the yellow sign then surely the 10-4 is redundant as you wil pay to park between 10 and 4 but the council can claim a sign says no parking at all 7-7....

I am interested to know the legal view on this. For what it's worth, the ticket machine I parked right next to said "see parking sign for hours of use" and I have a photo which I am uploading (but still struggling)


The no waiting/parking times should match the no loading times if not the signage is invalid, some parts of Wandsworth rd are only 7-7 on saturdays so a photo of the yellow sign is needed which for some reason you have decided not to do? The white plate is a permitted parking sign which states time parking is permitted it does not mean its free/unrestricted outside those hours.
ronnyboy1977
Date on the recipt (I assume you mean the yellow one) is 01/01/09 and time was 20:19 but this was when I picked the vehicle up - they have so far not told me the removal time - anyway, here you go



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dave-o
A few thoughts:

1) We haven't seen anything yet that refers to parking at the time you were ticketed. Are there other signs? Yellow line/s through the bay?

2) Only 20 minutes between ticketing and authorisation. It's not quite clear whether they have to leave 30 minutes before authorising or before removal. However, your receipt does not say when it was actually removed. Therefore, with any appeal i would request CEO notes so we can find out exactly what happened when.

3) This could hinge on these loading restrictions. None of the signs mention loading restrictions. We really need to see any other signs, and also all the road markings; i.e. bays, yellow lines, kerb blips.
ronnyboy1977
The reason I didn't take photos of the other signs is I genuinely thought they didn't apply - otherwise I would not have parked there as I can tell the time, I know how Lambeth will remove anything they think they can and honestly believed in a parking bay, the sign with the great big blue and white "P" was the sign that applied. I can go back and take photos of the rest of the signs if that helps but please don't just assume I am trying to park illegally and then avoid a fine - I don't park unless I believe that I am allowed to.

My main questions are just, how long they had to wait and did wait, and whether if I go to the independent adjudicator they will agree with me that 3 signs for one area isconfusing enough to give me the benefit of the doubt.

For what it's worth, this must have been the 10th time I have parked in this bay at the same time of day and not ONCE have I even had a PCN....

Thanks Dave-O - I will try to go back tonight to take all those. There was a yeallow line in the bay which runs the whole length of the road but as I said, I thought the dotted parking bay "overruled" those.

Will also get CEO notes - do you know the best way to do so and how long that takes?
clark_kent
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:21) *
The reason I didn't take photos of the other signs is I genuinely thought they didn't apply - otherwise I would not have parked there as I can tell the time, I know how Lambeth will remove anything they think they can and honestly believed in a parking bay, the sign with the great big blue and white "P" was the sign that applied. I can go back and take photos of the rest of the signs if that helps but please don't just assume I am trying to park illegally and then avoid a fine - I don't park unless I believe that I am allowed to.

My main questions are just, how long they had to wait and did wait, and whether if I go to the independent adjudicator they will agree with me that 3 signs for one area isconfusing enough to give me the benefit of the doubt.

For what it's worth, this must have been the 10th time I have parked in this bay at the same time of day and not ONCE have I even had a PCN....


The sign only applies at the time on the sign, if it says p&d 10-4 then its a pay and display 10-4 outside those hours it can be anything it likes as long as there is signage to state the fact there was as you pointed out a yellow line and a yellow sign saying no parking the fact that you for what ever reason decided to only take notice of the one sign. however if the signage does state no parking 7-7 and not 4-7 the sign is invalid.
ronnyboy1977
Pretty sure it said 7-7 but will go and have a look tonight hopefully and post photos - if either of the signs say 7-7 is the whole PCN invalid due to the signs?
dave-o
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:22) *
please don't just assume I am trying to park illegally and then avoid a fine - I don't park unless I believe that I am allowed to.

That's not the case at all. Even if you were parked "illegally" (actually "in contravention" - this is decriminalised parking) i would still be more than happy to help, as towing, and the price levied, is way out of proportion.
But the reason we are asking for this info is to see what routes of appeal you have.

QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:22) *
Will also get CEO notes - do you know the best way to do so and how long that takes?


You will request this with your formal appeal. It should be included with their reply.
clark_kent
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:30) *
Pretty sure it said 7-7 but will go and have a look tonight hopefully and post photos - if either of the signs say 7-7 is the whole PCN invalid due to the signs?



If it says no parking 7-7 and pay and display it has two different restrictions that conlict at the same time so you would have grounds for appeal. Where in the road was it we can look on google street view its a long road!
ronnyboy1977
Google maps seem to have taken the photo a while back and there is only the normal parking sign there - will go along later and photo what is there now

As for CEO notes, I was under the impression not to appeal yet - should I appeal and get the CEO notes?
ronnyboy1977
Having just called them it gets even worse:

Apparently there are 3 PCNs on the vehicle. One at 17:35 (which I never got), one at 17:39 (which I got and caused the towing) and one at 18:29 on Bromell's Road in Clapham at 18:29 1.5 miles away and AFTER the towing! I also didn't get this PCN either.

Seems the CEO was a bit of a fool and/or dodgy but is there a chance he issued 3 PCNs to justify removing the vehicle before 30 minutes had elapsed?
clark_kent
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 11:20) *
Having just called them it gets even worse:

Apparently there are 3 PCNs on the vehicle. One at 17:35 (which I never got), one at 17:39 (which I got and caused the towing) and one at 18:29 on Bromell's Road in Clapham at 18:29 1.5 miles away and AFTER the towing! I also didn't get this PCN either.

Seems the CEO was a bit of a fool and/or dodgy but is there a chance he issued 3 PCNs to justify removing the vehicle before 30 minutes had elapsed?



Surely its got better! If its actually true rather than a cock up by the person on the phone I can see the PCNs all getting cancelled. The first one may possibly have been removed but if you got a PCN whilst car was in the pound you have the Council over a barrel. Don't give the Council a chance to cover their backsides request copies of ALL the PCNs and then post them here, don't mention the discrepency until you have the PCNs in case any get 'forgotten about'.
Neil B
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:36) *
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 10:30) *
Pretty sure it said 7-7 but will go and have a look tonight hopefully and post photos - if either of the signs say 7-7 is the whole PCN invalid due to the signs?



If it says no parking 7-7 and pay and display it has two different restrictions that conlict at the same time so you would have grounds for appeal. Where in the road was it we can look on google street view its a long road!


I'm thinking that would only be the case if the yellow line went through the bay?


If it didn't then the unknown plate applies to yellow and the sign we've seen to the bay? No?

-

ronnyboy1977
They said they can't send them to me....any ideas?
Matts Dad
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 11:44) *
They said they can't send them to me....any ideas?


Get it from them in writing.
ronnyboy1977
They won't send anything and have told me to write to them requesting them. They gave me the PCN numbers though if that helps.
Mortimer
You don't see it often, but very occasionally, the tow truck will pick up a car, go to another pick up point, put the car down temporarily to pick up a second car, and transfer one of them to the towing apparatus on the back of the truck. So there are two cars taken to the pound together, one on the flat bed, and one towed (literally).

It wouldn't surprise me if just occasionally the car put down temporarily gets a PCN by some CEO taking the p*ss.
ronnyboy1977
Well it turns out I was completely wrong on the sign by the looks of it - must have been paying too much attention to the 7-7 on Saturday by mistake






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So, I assume my best options are to go for the car being towed in under 30 minutes and the subsequent PCN issued on another road AFTER the car had been towed?

Anyone got any other ways of proceeding?



clark_kent
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Thu, 3 Sep 2009 - 07:09) *
Well it turns out I was completely wrong on the sign by the looks of it - must have been paying too much attention to the 7-7 on Saturday by mistake






Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

So, I assume my best options are to go for the car being towed in under 30 minutes and the subsequent PCN issued on another road AFTER the car had been towed?

Anyone got any other ways of proceeding?



The sign is as I suspected and fully compliant sad.gif You need to urgently request copies of the two outstanding PCNs until you get those in your hand there is not much more you can do. ps You need to get in writing the time the vehicle was lifted, authorisation time is meaningless.
ronnyboy1977
They keep saying they can't send me copies unless I request them in writing but the time that may take would go past my 28 days for appeal, so:

Should I appeal on the grounds of the extra PCNs and car being lifted too early and in the meantime request the info from the council? That way they have my appeal and if it turns out they have done everything right and I have no grounds for appeal they just reject it?

I only ask because I have read on here a few times not to appeal until we have all the info etc.
clark_kent
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Thu, 3 Sep 2009 - 09:55) *
They keep saying they can't send me copies unless I request them in writing but the time that may take would go past my 28 days for appeal, so:

Should I appeal on the grounds of the extra PCNs and car being lifted too early and in the meantime request the info from the council? That way they have my appeal and if it turns out they have done everything right and I have no grounds for appeal they just reject it?

I only ask because I have read on here a few times not to appeal until we have all the info etc.



Writing includes email if they disagree then ask to speak to someone higher up. Point out that the PCNs had been removed at the pound and therefore they are obstructing your legal right to pay them within the discount period. They should be able to email you the details including contravention details time and issuing officer.

If they delay just send in any old appeal such as sign was confusing before the 28 days then they will spend ages to reply then you get another 28 days to go to PATAS after they reject. Since you have paid you may as well go to PATAS and by then you should have NTOs for the remaining PCNs.
ronnyboy1977
OK, spoke to them one more time and they won't do e-mail - told me any e-mail I send them gets scanned and posted to Worthing anyway so I may as well write.

Is there anything I shoul say/avoid in my letter requesting CEO notes and outstanding PCNs?

Also, if I appeal on one ground to them, can I change my grounds when I appeal to PATAS?
Neil B
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 11:20) *
Having just called them it gets even worse:

Apparently there are 3 PCNs on the vehicle. One at 17:35 (which I never got), one at 17:39 (which I got and caused the towing) and one at 18:29 on Bromell's Road in Clapham at 18:29 1.5 miles away and AFTER the towing! I also didn't get this PCN either.


The 17.39 PCN should not have been issued for the same location -- only one allowed per day. They could only have towed you for the 17.35 one -- so they appear to have shot themselves in yet another way.


-

ronnyboy1977
They mention the 17:35 one has been spoiled (they said this when I called again) - does that mean the 17:39 one is still wrong?

I am going to appeal on the grounds that proper procedure wasn't followed for a number of reasons but is this unwise? Would appreciate advice on what to say in my appeal bearing in mind I am going to write to get the PCNs I never got and the CEO notes at the same time as an initial appeal - don't want to put myself in a position to ruin a future appeal

Thanks in advance - your help has been great so far as by now my course of action would have been to shout down the phone at them and then send a sarcastic appeal!
BristolTerrier
Ronnyboy, I got towed by Lambeth a couple of weeks ago. I phoned them to ask what time my car went on the tow truck and they had a photo of it - a mere 4 minutes after they put the PCN on my car. It also happened to be the time on the authorisation for removal, so there's a good chance you'll have something similar.

It's worht the phone call at least to know one way or another if they lifted too early?
ronnyboy1977
Yeah, on the phone they said they saw 17:59 which was the same as the approval so I thought it was that but thinking about it it makes sense - they sit there waiting and sign and remove at the same time.Stupid of them really because I didn't get back until 18:45 so they could have waited an hour and still taken it.
bama
IMO they drive the truck around looking for 'pickups'.
ronnyboy1977
Would anybody be able to give me any advice on how to proceed from here? Responses kind of stopped cos I guess people gt bored but I have appealed based on the numerous PCNs issued and the facts that a PCN was issued and then the 2nd PCN used to tow the car and a 3rd issued after towing. Went for the fact that proper procedure hadn't been followed.

Was this wise and what would my next steps be if this is rejected?
Mortimer
There is very little you can do until the response comes back.

If rejected then its of to adjudication, and in which case I'm sure the many minds here will help guide you through the necessary preparation.

In the meantime, all you can do is wait.
ronnyboy1977
OK, so the council rejected my appeal and I have a date set for my hearing in about 3 weeks.

The facts:

I parked my car in a parking space where the signs misled me as to the times of operation but was issued with a PCN, followed by a 2nd PCN and then a towing.

The 2nd PCN issued was the one that was used for my towing and the 1st PCN was "spoiled" but only at a much later date.

The car was "observed from" 17:39 and no time in the "to" field

PCN removal notice on my car said authorised for removal at 17:59

When I appealed and was rejected I was told the car was being observed from 18:10, by which time I believe my car had already gone.

Finally, at 18:29 on the same day I got a PCN for a location 1.5 miles away AFTER my car had been towed. I mentioned this in my appeal but it was ignored. It was the same CEO so he must have mistakenly kept my details. This PCN has now been cancelled but only after my appeal and after my appeal regarding the towing.

My questions are:

Are the inconsistencies and lack of information regarding time observed and removed enough inconsistency to count as not following procedure?

Is the spoiling of the first ticket a breach of procedure?

From my calculation the earliest they could remove my car was 18:09 and would the CEO be present? If so he made it 1.5 miles away to book someone (i.e. the 3rd and incorrect PCN) pretty quickly.

When they mention in the appeal rejection that the car was observed at 18:10 do they mean removed or FIRST observed?

Will I be able to get the CEO notes BEFORE my appeal in about 3 weeks?

Want to make sure I don't come across without the right facts in my appeal.
ronnyboy1977
Hi, my appeal is due shortly and I need some help on what to expect and also whether Ip have a case to present based on irregularities in the towing of my car.

The facts:

I parked my car in a parking space where the signs misled me as to the times of operation but was issued with a PCN, followed by a 2nd PCN and then a towing.

The 2nd PCN issued was the one that was used for my towing and the 1st PCN was "spoiled" but only at a much later date.

The car was "observed from" 17:39 and no time in the "to" field

PCN removal notice on my car said authorised for removal at 17:59 (less than 30 minutes allowed in the act)

When I appealed and was rejected I was told the car was being observed from 18:10, by which time I believe my car had already gone.

Finally, at 18:29 on the same day I got a PCN for a location 1.5 miles away AFTER my car had been towed. I mentioned this in my appeal but it was ignored. It was the same CEO so he must have mistakenly kept my details. This PCN has now been cancelled but only after my appeal and after my appeal regarding the towing as I had to appeal or face paying this fine. This is the main point I will make in my defence.

My questions are:

Are the inconsistencies and lack of information regarding time observed and removed enough inconsistency to count as not following procedure?

Is the spoiling of the first ticket a breach of procedure?

From my calculation the earliest they could remove my car was 18:09 and would the CEO be present? If so he made it 1.5 miles away to book someone (i.e. the 3rd and incorrect PCN) pretty quickly.

When they mention in the appeal rejection that the car was observed at 18:10 do they mean removed or FIRST observed?

Will I be able to get the CEO notes BEFORE my appeal in about 3 weeks?

Want to make sure I don't come across without the right facts in my appeal.

Thanks for any help you can give

buttonpusher
To summarise
You parked in a parking space and got a ticket, the same day you got another ticket and the car was towed on the strength of this second ticket. Is that correct?
Teufel
yep your story is hard to follow

please recount again and post pics of thesigms/lines etc where u were parked
and images of ALL the documents

all means ALL - remove persoanl details
southpaw82
You can understand why people are confused, since you saw fit to start a new thread concerning your PCN - on which you already had a thread running. One of the rules here is "one case, one thread". I have merged your threads. Do not start any more on this PCN.
ronnyboy1977
Apologies for posting a new thread I am new to this and couldn't find my original thread under "my posts" or "my topics"

To summarise:

Car towed on 2nd ticket within 20 mins of ticket being issued. 1st ticket was issued but later cancelled (once I had appealed to the council on towing)

Car got 3rd ticket 1.5 miles away while the car was in the possession of the council

If the threads are merged you should be able to see the photos of everything - please let me know if you do not

Thanks and apologies again
buttonpusher
When did you get the second ticket, was it the same day as the one which was later canceled and how far apart were they in time?
ronnyboy1977
When I got my car back I was only aware of the one PCN. It was when I called the council to find out about apppealing that they told me there were 3 PCNs on the vehicle. The first (which was later cancelled and I was unaware of until the call), the second (which they used to remove my car) and the third (the one 1.5 miles away which has NOW been cancelled but only after my appeal - I had to appeal as time was running out on it)

The only one I have had to pay was the 2nd one although I had to appeal the other 2

Council still haven't sent me CEO notes I need for my appeal
buttonpusher
post deleted, see Neils post 31.
ronnyboy1977
I have my hearing in a few days. Was wondering if anyone could clarify the act relating to how soon a car can be removed once it has been observed/PCN'd. I thought it was 30 minutes but are the circumstances where this is not the case such as if it is on aq single yellow line and not a parking space? If it is single yellow (which mine is) is there any time limit? It is one point I hope to rely on.

Also, having a spoiled 1st PCN (i.e. not the PCN used for removal) for any reason and having a 3rd PCN dated AFTER removal. Are any of these grounds for improper procedures.

I realise I have not done this post properly but would appreciate any help.

Would also like to know what to expect during my appeal hearing and whether inconsistencies in the CEO notes can count as improper procedure - for example they state the car was lifted at 18:10 in the notes but their photos clearly show 17:59. Apologies but I don't have time to add those photos but please see earlier in the post for event photos/scans etc.

Thanks
clark_kent
QUOTE (ronnyboy1977 @ Sun, 20 Dec 2009 - 21:17) *
I have my hearing in a few days. Was wondering if anyone could clarify the act relating to how soon a car can be removed once it has been observed/PCN'd. I thought it was 30 minutes but are the circumstances where this is not the case such as if it is on aq single yellow line and not a parking space? If it is single yellow (which mine is) is there any time limit? It is one point I hope to rely on.

Also, having a spoiled 1st PCN (i.e. not the PCN used for removal) for any reason and having a 3rd PCN dated AFTER removal. Are any of these grounds for improper procedures.

I realise I have not done this post properly but would appreciate any help.

Would also like to know what to expect during my appeal hearing and whether inconsistencies in the CEO notes can count as improper procedure - for example they state the car was lifted at 18:10 in the notes but their photos clearly show 17:59. Apologies but I don't have time to add those photos but please see earlier in the post for event photos/scans etc.

Thanks


What date is the appeal? Have you got the evidence pack does it have the CEOs notes in? What contraventions/times etc were the other PCNs? This case is reliant on detail but you are constantly very vague? Why did they cancel otrher tickets or was no reason given?
ronnyboy1977
Apologies for being vague - not my intention but thought I had posted the info earlier. Obviously missed some points and apologies

Appeal is tomorrow (22nd)

CEO notes are in the evidence pack and support my case of being lifted too early.

PCN 1 issued 1st and eventually cancelled as spoiled without my appeal if my memory serves me right

PCN 2 issued at 17:39 and was used as the PCN for removal, photos show 17:59 as removal - nothing about removal in CEO notes other than the photos as by 17:48 the CEO appeared to have moved to another location

PCN 3 issued at 18:29 after my car had reached the pound (photos show 18:28 as car being set down in pound) - this was cancelled on appeal due to "administrative errors" but was not done until I appealed and a Notice to Owner was sent in the meantime.

Hope this helps and apologies for lack of info earlier


southpaw82
Unless your car was in a "parking space" then it can be removed immediately. If it was in a "parking space" then it can be removed after 30 mins (unless there were three or more penalty charges outstanding, when it's 15 mins). What, exactly, were the markings you were parked on? A single yellow line alone or a single yellow line inside a parking bay?
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