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Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Eager SALFORD traffic-light camera - rear wheels didnt cross the line.. did I actually break the law, as I did stop ??
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
jonesenbury
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - April 2009
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A580 East Lancs Road, WB Approach to Walkden Road, Worsley / WB
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was approaching the junction in the 3rd lane on the 50mph Dual carriageway it was early evening with low bright sunlight behind the Traffic lights partially obscuring my view of the approaching lights (this can be seen on the GMP photo provided), as I realised the lights were changing I braked heavily (I was travelling at 50mph), but was aware of another car close behind me so moderated my slow-down to prevent a pile-up and to bring my car to a controlled safe stop. my front wheels only crossed the stop line. The 2 photo's provided show my front wheels on the line on the first picture (with a speed of 18mph), the second picture shows my front wheels only 2 ft further forward, with my rear wheels still behind the line (with a speed of 13mph) - My rear wheels never crossed the line and I never entered the junction (the picture shows a huge lorry crossing the junction making it impossible for me to have entered the junction. I have been driving 22 years and average 18k miles per year, I've had 3 minor speeding offences in the past and never contested one of them, yet I feel so strongly that I have NEVER jumped a red light and didn't on this occasion, that I intend to fight it, can anyone offer advice on the best defence I can follow ??

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 14:42:36 +0100
ford poplar
If the front wheels crossed the Stop line on red, then offence committed.
There is usually a delay of 1 sec between red light showing and camera activation, following a 3 sec amber light.
Complete the s172 in time and wait to see what is offered. If the photos show what you state, a reasonable mag may consider it a frivolous prosecution, only possible because of the camera. Others may think different.
jonesenbury
Thanks, what do you think is the likelyhood of a magistrate looking favourably on me given the very clear photo with the car at only 13mph and the junction full of vehicles crossing (thereby showing I couldn't have entered the junction), I should have added that my brake lights are clearly visible in BOTH photo's - showing that I was stopping
ict_guy
Entering the junction makes no difference. The offence is committed if any part of your vehicle crosses the white line whilst the lights display Red. Since you continued moving over the line, according to your post, the offence has been committed. The trip to court is likely to cost you extra money and you'll get 3 points either way.
oldstoat
Unfortunately with the system now designed to create revenue, rather than have common sense applied, the fact that your vehicle crossed the lines at red will be the only criteria applied by the people who operate the system. You will pay no matter what you argue. Unfortunate but true
The Rookie
I would argue that special reasons not to endorse MAY be an option depending on how convincing you can be as regards your inability to stop by the line (does either photo show the following car, preferably stopped where you should have stopped, if you follow me?), but I think its a gamble, if you loose the 3pts will be the same but the fine a lot higher.

Simon
jonesenbury
Hi everyone, Thanks for your posts, I'm really pragmatic and would always choose the least painful outcome....However, the paperwork I've been sent seems to suggest that I dont have the option of a standard fixed penalty fine and 3 points (if it did, I'd have accepted it and swalloed my pride to take less pain), instead there are 2 forms asking all about my income, outgoings etc, it seems to be completely means tested...suggesting that even if I elect to plead guilty, I'm still going to be hit with a Huge fine regardless (I have a fairly well paid job), where is it shown that by pleading guilty means testing wont be applied...???
southpaw82
It's not - a fine proportionate to income (subject to the statutory maximum) is applied in all cases at court.
jonesenbury
Thanks SouthPaw, not sure I understand though, are you saying there is a statutory fixed fine if I return the form pleading guilty, or that I'll still be means tested and fine proportunately even if I do plead guilty?
andy_foster
Other than the fixed penalty which you will not be offered, there is no statutory fixed fine. There is however a statutory limit to the fine of £1000 for traffic light offences - your actual fine will be based on several factors, including your income, but it cannot exceed the statutory limit. If you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity (at the first hearing - either by post or in person), you should be entitled to a 1/3 discount of the fine, making the effective maximum £667.

The offence carries a mandatory endorsement of 3 penalty points, or a discretionary ban. I have no idea whether the mags' guidelines allow for a ban (guidelines are not binding, but the mags would need to explain any deviation from them and need a good reason).

I would be wary of using being unaware of the traffic lights as mitigation (unless there was a good reason for this, such as the sun being low in the sky) - because whilst that would tend to remove the element of disregard for the law, it strongly suggests careless driving which would be an aggravating factor (although not a separate charge).
The Rookie
If you want to explore the special reasons not to endorse, that would still mean pleading guilty and therefore you would (should) still get the 1/3 discount even if the reasons are not accepted.

Fine for red light offences should be 25-75% of your weekly take home (less the 1/3 if you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity), as they have not offered you a CoFP (presumably you went over a long time after they went red) then the offence may be at the more serious end of the scale, so level may be approaching the 75%.

Do the photo's show the sunlight behind the lights, do they show your barke lights, how long into red do they show, please let us know as then we can look at the special reasons possibility.

Simon

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