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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
BristolTerrier
Hi all, I just wanted to ask the advice of those with greater experience of this than me, whether I have grounds for appeal on my PCN and subsequent towing of my car two weeks ago.

I used to live in the Lambeth Council area and now let my flat out. I was up on a "landlords visit" and parked on a street that I often parked on in the days when I had a resident's permit. On this occasion, I had a visitor parking permit, all scratched out correctly.

A year ago, I'm fairly sure this road was a long line of resident's parking bays on one side. However, in the year since I left London, it appears that the Council have allocated the first couple of car lengths to Pay and Display - 30 minutes maximum wait. I admit that I parked there without checking properly, assuming all was well and I was in a resident's bay. When I got back (some hours later) I found my car was gone. It was at Capital Car Pound at the back of the Millwall football ground, as I'm sure you all guessed by now.

I think I have grounds for appeal, on the basis that they did not allow 30 minutes between placing the PCN on my car and taking the vehicle away. That's how I read the Road Traffic Act anyway.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/pdf/uksi_20073484_en.pdf

On my PCN, It states that my car was "Observed from 10:42 to 11:16" and the Tow notice says authorisation to tow was given at 11:20.

Anyone offer any thoughts on whether I have good grounds for appeal and how I should play it.

Thanks in advance!
clark_kent
What time was it lifted?
BristolTerrier
Unfortunately I didn't pass the spot I parked my car until 5pm so I guess it could have been taken at any time between 11:20 and 5pm.

clark_kent
QUOTE (BristolTerrier @ Wed, 26 Aug 2009 - 21:38) *
Unfortunately I didn't pass the spot I parked my car until 5pm so I guess it could have been taken at any time between 11:20 and 5pm.


How do you know it was not 30 mins between PCN and removal then? wacko.gif
BristolTerrier
I don't, all I know is that only 4 minutes passed between the PCN being issued (11:16) and the authorisation for removal being given (11:20). To my mind, that means if the tow truck happened to pass at 11:21, he would have taken my car, and therefore the CEO didn't allow 30 minutes to pass. Is this not enough? (Excuse my ignorance!)
clark_kent
QUOTE (BristolTerrier @ Wed, 26 Aug 2009 - 21:47) *
I don't, all I know is that only 4 minutes passed between the PCN being issued (11:16) and the authorisation for removal being given (11:20). To my mind, that means if the tow truck happened to pass at 11:21, he would have taken my car, and therefore the CEO didn't allow 30 minutes to pass. Is this not enough? (Excuse my ignorance!)


Authorised for removal and removed are not the same thing unless you get the actual time it was lifted you are going to get nowhere, the Council should keep a record of time lifted.
BristolTerrier
OK, thanks Clark. Are they duty bound to provide me with that info if I call? Should they have provided it to me with my paperwork (or else how am I to know if 30 minutes elapsed?)
clark_kent
QUOTE (BristolTerrier @ Wed, 26 Aug 2009 - 22:02) *
OK, thanks Clark. Are they duty bound to provide me with that info if I call? Should they have provided it to me with my paperwork (or else how am I to know if 30 minutes elapsed?)


They should provide the details on request if asked if they don't it will go against them at appeal. They do not have to tell you how long elapsed when you collect the car why would they, they don't show you the traffic orders or anything else to help you appeal.
BristolTerrier
Right then, I'll phone tomorrow and try to get that information. I guess if they did leave it half an hour, I've not really got grounds to appeal? It just seems such an overreaction to tow me away for parking the wrong side of a bay marking as a genuine mistake, when I was causing no obstruction etc. The best I can do at the moment is a line in Lambeth's "Parking Newsletter" dated Jan 2008, in which Cllr Nigel Haselden announces:

Routine clamping to end

I am sure that you will be as delighted as I am as I announce that we plan to end clamping as a routine enforcement tool on
Lambeth’s roads. We feel that clamping does not fit into the firm but fair parking culture that we are working hard to establish.
I am pleased to announce that from April clamping will no longer be used on Lambeth roads except for dealing with
persistent parking ticket evaders.

Surely towing is more severe an enforcement tool than clamping?


clark_kent
Clamping is just a punishment it doesn't acheive much as far as traffic management goes, towing however removes the vehicle and frees up the space or removes an obstruction.
dave-o
QUOTE (BristolTerrier @ Wed, 26 Aug 2009 - 22:02) *
OK, thanks Clark. Are they duty bound to provide me with that info if I call? Should they have provided it to me with my paperwork (or else how am I to know if 30 minutes elapsed?)



It should have been on the towing receipt.

The 30 minute rule only applies to parking spaces, i.e. not yellow lines etc.



Post up all your docs!

BristolTerrier
Hey Dave-o, thanks for your input - all greatly received!

Here's the only docs I have as JPEGS right now (I have the Lambeth Council Appeal Form and Representations as PDFs - will convert them to JPEG):







There was no mention of the towing time on my tow receipt - I'll scan this tonight and get it up on here to prove that.

In the meantime, I'll phone Lambeth Council at lunch and ask them to provide that info.

dave-o
Are you absolutely sure there was no removal receipt?
bama
papers under TMA but yellow flyer says "Illegally parked".

WTF ?
BristolTerrier
I tried to scan me removal fee receipt (the one I was given when I picked the car up from the pound), but as it is the yellow back copy, it didn't scan well at all.

Anyway I've checked and it only has the date the car was removed, not the time.

Anything in my favour here, or is this clutching at straws...?!






Neil B
He did say ALL the docs. There is a lot more you haven't shown isn't there?



dave-o
Not including the time is a definite appeal point. Remember that you have paid, so you have absolutely nothing to lose by taking this all the way.

But as above, please show everything. If it's not scanning well try a digi cam on close-up mode.
bama
Interestingly that linked site contains a link to the planning application.

Type of Application: Advert Application


hmm, so the signs are admittedly just adverts...

BristolTerrier
Here's everything else:

Appeal Form Page 1




Appeal Form Page 2



Representations Page 1



Representations Page 2



Removal Fee Receipt



I haven't phoned Lambeth as yet to get the removal time, should I do so, or would it not help at this stage.

BTW, I have until next Tuesday to get this appeal in...



dave-o
The docs look in order to me, but perhaps someone else will have some useful suggestions.
BristolTerrier
OK, I'm a littl eunsure how I should go forward with this...

Should I phone for the time tha car was actually towed, and if it was less than 30 minutes from the PCN, appeal on that basis?

If it was more than 30 minutes, is it all over, or is there any mileage in the fact they didn't give me that information?

Should I request CEO notes in my letter of appeal (have seen this mentioned in other posts)?

I need to get my appeal letter in the post by the weekend if at all possible.....

Thanks for all your help on this people!
BristolTerrier
Gotcha! (I think!)

I've just spoken to Lambeth Council and they have confirmed that the have a phot of my car going onto the tow truck at 11:20. According to my PCN, my car was observed from 10:42 to 11:16. By my understanding, they did not give me 30 minutes to respond to the PCN. This will be the basis of my appeal then - unless anyone can tell me otherwise...?



This is the relevant bit from the Road Traffic Act http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/pdf/uksi_20073484_en.pdf:

(3) The power conferred by paragraph (2) is not exercisable where the vehicle concerned is in a parking place and a penalty charge notice has been served as mentioned in paragraph

(1)(b) in respect of a contravention consisting of, or arising out of, a failure—

(a) to pay a parking charge with respect to the vehicle;

(b) properly to display a ticket or parking device; or

© to remove the vehicle from the parking place by the end of the period for which the appropriate charge was paid, until the appropriate period has elapsed since the giving of that penalty charge notice in respect of the contravention.

(4) In this regulation—

“the appropriate period” means—

(a) in the case of a vehicle as respects which there are 3 or more penalty charges outstanding, 15 minutes;

(b) in any other case 30 minutes;

Am I in the clear...?!
dave-o
You should be. Expect the council to reject your appeal and make you go to PATAS though.

Ask for CEO notes in your appeal.
BristolTerrier
Great - appeal has gone in the post today - registered post of course!

Thanks for all your help everybody - really appreciated. It's great to know there are people out there willing to put in the time to help other people in real predicaments with the general madness surrounding parking tickets.

I may well be back if\when they reject my appeal...!

Thanks,

BristolTerrier
fluff34567
have you seen the photo of the car going on the truck ? i ask as if it was me i would want the pic before going thru to appeal if thats your main point... maybe the photo never turns up and appeal will be rejected?
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