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Burf
I have just been issued with a fixed penalty notice of 3 points and £60 fine.
The reason is as follows
I was behind two cars that where stuck behind a digger doing less than 10 mph we where going a long a straigt road with no traffic coming from the opposite direction, I started to overtake the cars and as I did so the digger started to speed up and the car immediately following it sped up and left me no space to get in between the two, this forced me to overtake the digger on a zebra crossing! I was then pulled over by the police and told me I shouldnt have overtaken.
she asked me into the back of the car and was looking all of her books to try and find an offence to book me with, she eventually came up with overtaking on a zebra crossing, which I was aware is an offence but I asked her what other option I had, she would not answer this question and became very abrupt with me, I then asked her if I went to court would she answer the question then, she then said if I went to court she would say It was dangerous driving!
She has written on the fixed penalty notice overtaking moving vehicle on pelican crossing even though it was a zebra crossing.

WHAT ARE MY OPTIONS????
I feel the fixed penalty is unfair I as was forced into overtaking on the zebra crossing by the digger and following car, when I began the overtake there was more than enough space for me to get by before the zigzag's so please help!!
jobo
was the over take on the xig zags on the way to or away from the crossing, over taking on the approach is an offence

no she cant up it to dangerous driving its what ever she wroye on the nip
oldstoat
If there where two cars in front and you had only just started to overtake the two cars why did you not slow down and pull back in.

There were two cars in front of you but the digger and the immediate car behind started to speed up as you started to overtake does that not mean there was a gap between car one and car two, thus allowing you to pull in. If this was not possible can you explain more clearly because at present it seems to me that you decided to go for it with a clear road ahead of you. I mean three vehicles coming upto a zebra is quite a long way even at digger speeds
Burf
I had no option, the car immediately behind the digger had filled that gap and all other cars had taken my space so I was commited!
other than stopping on the wrong side of the road.
And yes it was only two cars I overtook but the one that caused the problem accelerated and gave me no optin to pull back in and all other cars pulled forward.
in reply to previos post I overtook in the Zig Zag's prior to the crossing and actually on the crossing.
ict_guy
QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 26 Aug 2009 - 19:37) *
over taking on the approach is an offence


No it's not. It is an offence to overtake the car nearest to the crossing. He could have legally overtaken the car that speeded up if he could cut back in behand the digger, before it crossed the crossing.

From what the OP says, the offence has been committed, however. There is no defence that he had no other choice - since he did and should have put his brakes on and NOT overtake the car closest to the crossing.
The Rookie
To be honest I can't see a digger doing 10mph could speed up enough to cause you to pass on the zebra crossing either!

Take the fine/points and learn from it I'm afraid.

Simon
Durzel
Diggers are not known for their brisk acceleration.

The correct choice would've been to indicate to merge back in drop in behind all of the cars.

As has already been said saying "my only choice was to overtake everything" isn't really true and won't hold any water with the courts, if it got that far.
viper
Surely the best option would have been to wait 5/10 seconds at the most then overtake after the pedestrian crossing. Sounds like impatience got the better of you. A fixed penalty is not a bad result for what you did, they could have tried to book you for careless driving especially if they had video evidence
Burf
Well thanks for all your comments seems most of you want to be judge and jury rather than give me any advice??
The reason I say I had no other optios was because there was NO other options! There was a massive que of traffic who filled my spot as soon as I pulled out and the person directly behind the digger sped up on purpose so as not to leave me the space to pull in!! And the only other option was to stop on the wrong side of the road and that would of Been in the zigzags which is also an offence! I did not start the overtake with the intention of overtaking on the zebra crossing but was forced into it by the actions of the other drivers! And a digger can speed up and force you to over take when you are overtaking within the speed limit and he has moved over in the road slightly as if he is giving you the intention he us going to block you!

So please if anyone has some real advice on this site please help, all the others who want to be judge and jury maybe your in the wrong career????
BaggieBoy
If you wanted sympathy and a hug, you came to the wrong place. All people have done is explore the same areas you would have to go to if you took it to court. It's highly unlikely the FPN would be withdrawn, so you either pay it or take it to court. I don't think you have a hope in hell in winning this, you made a mistake and commited the offence, it's very unlikely a court would be sympathetic.
Lynnzer
**** happens Burf.
I'm one of those who would close up when some Ar£ehole tries to overtake me in such a situation.
You should really be prepared for all eventualities in such circumstances and to be honest if stopping on a zig-zag until you had enough space to get back into traffic flow was the only option then it would have been better you did this.
Advice......
Take it on the chin as there's no magistrate in the land would find you innocent of this.
There are no mitigating circumstances, no lack of driver identity ( I presume ) so to take this any further would likely cost you dearly.

Come back again when you have another case and believe me, we don't all want to slap you down. It's just that we try and give an honest answer and help where we can.
oldstoat
Well thanks for all your comments seems most of you want to be judge and jury rather than give me any advice??

Not a matter of being judge and jury but making you realise that if we as sympathetic people can see the weakness of your case then an unsympathetic magistrate is certainly not going to see the better side of it either and probably hit you harder in the pocket to boot.

Sorry you feel hard done by but bad news and critisism is still advice. ADVICE mind you it is after all your decision as to what to do.
Burf
Seems sone people cannot read I do not require a hug or am I requesting sympathy. Just advice would have done!
I do take the point that yes it is wrong to overtake on a zebra crossing but won't I don't seem to be able to get across to you all is that i was pushed into that situation by other drivers. Who like one of the post said felt it be in his best judgement to make me commit an offence!??? Surely they are the people who should be penalised and not the driver of the car thet forced to do the offence.
bossjohnc
Did they force you on to the other side of the road? Did they force you not to stop before the crossing and drop back in behind them?

When you execute a maneuver like an overtake in a residential road like this, you have a lot to take in to account. If you can't take everything in to account, or there are too many potential variables beyond your control then you shouldn't make the maneuver.

The majority of people (me included) on here are not here to judge, and they will tell you that you have little to no chance of any defence against this FPN.
Burf
The only variables in the manouver where from people who decided to make it harder for me to overtake. Please read the previous posts!!! There was NO where for me to drop back into as there was a long que of traffic as we had been following the digger for about 3 miles!!
I am aware of how too overtake cars as i have been driving for 21years!
Transit man
The question that the magistrate will ask him/herself is, why did the car behind the digger not overtake? OK, he may have been a dodderer, or he may have thought it not safe, he did not make the manoeuvre, but you did. I don't know, I was not there.

But the advise given is based on what you have said here & what could you say to a magistrate. The general consensus of opinion, on the basis of what you & the observing police officer has said is that the offence has been committed, like it or not & no one on here can think of a suitable defence to fight this with.

If anyone one here thought you had a good defence, they would be straight in with advice on how to put that defence forward. Harsh I know, but that's one of the great the pleasures of driving.
V70owner
I'm new to this forum and have no legal qualifications at all but I'd like to pass on to you something my driving instructor told me 27 years ago. The only time you have to pass a vehicle is if it's parked (stationary.) If traffic is moving you always have the choice of trying to pass it or staying behind it - even if it is moving at only 10mph. It seems to me that you made a bad choice to start with when you decided to pull out and pass the 3 vehicles.

You say in you title that you had no other option, but you did - the same choice the other 2 drivers behind the tractor made. And that initial bad choice got you in to this trouble.

I can't see how those other drivers "pushed you into that situation," sorry. For me you initially created your own problem.
oldstoat
QUOTE (Burf @ Fri, 28 Aug 2009 - 17:40) *
The only variables in the manouver where from people who decided to make it harder for me to overtake. Please read the previous posts!!! There was NO where for me to drop back into as there was a long que of traffic as we had been following the digger for about 3 miles!!
I am aware of how too overtake cars as i have been driving for 21years!



Sorry but at the end of the day you made the decision to overtake unfortunately you crossed the digger on zebras. Presumably at some point in this manouver you were aware that a zebra was approaching. You then made the decision to carry on. The other drivers behavior is of NO consequence in a court of law.

Judge Did you overtake on a zebra.

You Yes but the road traffic conditions made me. I was the third car in a line and attempted to pass two cars and a digger and i when overtaking I could not get back because they would not let me. I did not see the zebra before i overtook, but when I did they would not let me in so I decided to carry on.

judge So you admit that you failed to take the road and traffic conditions into account.

You. Er no I thought I could make it

Judge Did you know the zebra approaching.

You Yes/No (not sure if you did or did not)

Judge So you crossed contrary to law.

You They made me

Guilty

Sorry mate you are stuffed
ict_guy
It would be normal procedure to allow the car immediately behind the digger to overtake it first and wait until there are no other vehicles between you and the digger to 'plan' your safe overtake. The only exception to this 'rule' is for us bikers (who would overtake the line of traffic very very carefully) wink.gif
Dhutch
As someone who's done a fair bit of digger driving in the past (having worked on placement at JCB for 15months) they can actually accelerate to there top speed fairly rapidly. They dont have a massive top speed, but the gearing is such that acceleration from 10 to 20mph could be surprisingly rapidly.

For the OP's scenario to have occurred he would have probably been cutting it fairly close, but its not unbelievable that it could have happened.

If you want to fight it, good for you, I certainly would if I had enough points as to be close to a totting up ban anyway. Otherwise it may be easier just to take it as ‘one of those things’ and continue life. Either way it does seam a load of **** realistically.





Daniel




southpaw82
Nobody "forced" the OP to overtake. The fact that the OP did not plan ahead and consider the possibility that the following driver might close up (and let's face it, that happens a lot) or that the vehicle being overtaken may speed up (happens less often but still is an obvious consideration) is the OP's problem and all this bleating about being such a poor hard done by little soldier is just that. No defence presents itself, take the ticket or go to court and get hammered.
Burf
I recieved a fixed penatly notice last week
I have just looked at the date to remind me when my documents need to be in and the date is not legible
The officer must have written the 27th 1st then realised it was the 26th and has gone over the 7 to make the six, but it is not very clear. Does this make it still enforcable or will it allow me to challenge the ticket? If so how to I go about it?

Thanks
Simon
Fredd
You've started a duplicate thread!
Mortimer
QUOTE (Burf @ Wed, 2 Sep 2009 - 08:45) *
I recieved a fixed penatly notice last week
I have just looked at the date to remind me when my documents need to be in and the date is not legible
The officer must have written the 27th 1st then realised it was the 26th and has gone over the 7 to make the six, but it is not very clear. Does this make it still enforcable or will it allow me to challenge the ticket? If so how to I go about it?

Thanks
Simon


Do a Google search on the "Slip Rule", I think you'll get your answer there.
Durzel
No. You're clutching at straws I'm afraid.
Burf
I guessed that but was worth a go!!
thanks
The Rookie
Perfectly enforceable, it may give you a cop out on presenting documents slightly late (and risking loosing acces to the FPN and having to bend over in court for you wallet to get a spanking) but that doesn't change the original offence at all.

Simon
Starfighter
Another option to think about would be some additional driver training. You're screwed on the evidence supplied with this case but it might just add some additional observational skills to keep you out of trouble in the future.
TYA
Burf, you're very lucky capital punishment is no longer in UK law because you've asked for so much rope you've hung yourself. I cannot see the circumstances in which overtaking three vehicles is not careless if not dangerous driving. And at a zebra??!! You are lucky you didn't kill someone.

Your manner towards criticism hints at a certain impatience, if not petulance, non? If you've got a FPN for this you have got off very likely. Take the criticism on here on board, reflect and LEARN from your behaviour. Sometimes you have to take it on the chin and learn the hard way. I speak from experience.
jobo
tya said

I cannot see the circumstances in which overtaking three vehicles is not careless if not dangerous driving

WHAT ?? are you having a laugh
southpaw82
Quite - did it yesterday in fact. Never done it near a ped x mind wink.gif
TYA
I don't mean motorways.... I mean roads where you can quite clearly not see what is ahead, like the OP. There are enough head on collisions in my area
southpaw82
QUOTE (TYA @ Fri, 4 Sep 2009 - 23:15) *
I don't mean motorways.... I mean roads where you can quite clearly not see what is ahead, like the OP. There are enough head on collisions in my area

Are motorways the only roads where you can see clearly ahead? I did it yesterday on a single lane road... perfectly safe and legal. There is also a bit of a rule here about not judging people - sometimes that's inevitable when giving advice but a post that contains no advice whatsoever is generally unhelpful.


TYA
My advice was to learn from others' criticisms. I was taken aback not so much by the original post, but the impatient and rather petulant response to others reasoned advice. This forum has 'rules about not judging'? News to me. Living in Yorkshire, we tend to call a spade a spade and a boyracer a boyracer. I've been hammered in court today so it's not a case of 'he who is without sin cast the first stone.' I have been a clot... and am happy to admit it and learn from it if others aren't.
southpaw82
QUOTE (TYA @ Fri, 4 Sep 2009 - 23:35) *
I was taken aback not so much by the original post, but the impatient and rather petulant response to others reasoned advice.


You're not the only one.

QUOTE
This forum has 'rules about not judging'?
 


So I understand.

Burf
QUOTE (TYA @ Fri, 4 Sep 2009 - 23:35) *
Living in Yorkshire, we tend to call a spade a spade and a boyracer a boyracer. I've been hammered in court today so it's not a case of 'he who is without sin cast the first stone.' I have been a clot... and am happy to admit it and learn from it if others aren't.

Hardly a boy racer overtaking two cars and a digger !!! I overtook them at ten miles an hour!!!
Looks like you learn from the other by making a judgemant without all the facts?????
I have been driving for over 20 years and wouldnt class 10 miles an hour as racing.

Oh and by the way the manouvre was safe and legal when it was first started it was only through the two drivers of both the car following the digger who decided he was going to make it difficult for me to pass or manouvre back into the stream of the traffic and then by the digger who thought he would join in that then made the manouvre illegal.
I would say they where more reckless in there actions than me overtaking then at ten mph?
And no matter what you think I have held my hands upto overtaking on the zebra as being illegal and have infact already taken the charge for it, but what I cant seem to get accross is that it was purely done because of the actions of some pathetic drivers who thought it was clever to swerve all ofver the road as some law abiding citezen overtakes then just because he doesnt want to sit behind them for another 3 miles doing 10 mph, when there is a clear road ahead with no hazards., yes there was a zebra crossing approx 3/4 mile up the road but as I drive a car that can go faster than a digger I had enough time and space to complete the manouvre before the zebra crossing, had it not been for the two moronic drivers off the digger and car following.

QUOTE (TYA @ Fri, 4 Sep 2009 - 22:03) *
Burf, you're very lucky capital punishment is no longer in UK law because you've asked for so much rope you've hung yourself.

.


I agree capital punishment should be available but I wouldnt have thought it would be issued to someone overtaking???? maybe rapist, murderes or child molestors but not people overtaking?
Are you by any chance in the police? just a thought????
I am Weasel
I've sat quiet on this one till now but there are some inconsistencies in your story that damage your credibility:

If the digger was doing 10MPH and the zebra crossing was 3/4 mile up the road, what sort of car are you driving that can't out-accelerate a digger & overtake it and 2 other cars in that distance? Maybe a G-WIZ perhaps?

Also, you need to read the highway code again. You should not start a manouvre unless it is safe to complete it - and that must take into account the possible actions of other motorists
Burf
Oh dear me
too clarify just for you weasel
yes it was doing ten miles an hour BUT he was swereving into my path to hinder the overtake which then made it mire difficult and made it take longer to overtake as was the car following!!!
And I have recently been tested on the highway code as I have recently passed my bike test and I'm sure the highway code doesn't say "when someone is overtaking you force them to have to slow by weaving in the road as if you are going to pull infront of the overtaking vehicle"
please correct me if in wrong but in sure that would be classed as dangerous driving??
Lynnzer
I wuz overtaking a tractor and trailer when this geezer jumped out and painted a zebra crossing in front of me guv...........
I am one of those who feel the frustration of having to follow slow vehicles (and in my case a load of bloody gypsy horse and carts) for an eternity when I have VERY IMPORTANT things to do in a hurry.

My time is ALWAYS MORE IMPORTANT than public safety. At least that's what you appear to be saying.
The other drivers who forced? you into this situation were not doing anything illegal. They may have been inconsiderate at the very least but it is equally inconsiderate to force someone to give way to allow you to gain a small advantage when all you needed was a little patience and straight stretch of road.
By the way, what would you have done if a woman with a pram and a small child was using the zebra crossing at the time? Stick your head out of the window and blame her for crossing when she should have waited for you, or shout and tell her that it was the other cars in front to blame as you wiped the gooey flesh off your windscreen.

I must admit that I can't deny that some things such as this must have happened to me in my years on the road. I guess we all make a misjudgment from time to time but I hope we all learn from them.
MartinHP71
QUOTE (Burf @ Sat, 5 Sep 2009 - 10:53) *
yes it was doing ten miles an hour BUT he was swereving into my path to hinder the overtake which then made it mire difficult and made it take longer to overtake as was the car following!!!


This is a new twist in the story. Before it was they accelerated to close the gap and now it appears that the vehicles are swerving across the road to stop you overtaking but the police don't notice this at all but they notice you going over the zebra crossing ?

Interesting .......
Burf
Must say beautiful story you made up but how any of that relates to the facts of my account I am unsure?
southpaw82
Does it really matter now? You say you've "accepted the charge". Some people no doubt think your driving was bad, some might not. Deal with it.
ict_guy
Can't a mod set up a poll and let us vote? biggrin.gif
viper
Come to think of it a zebra crossing would usually have an island in the middle and quite often you even have a arrow box with the pull in indication. Have you any pictures of the location to show how unfair the ticket was? I would as a general rule say someone overtaking on zebra crossing should be flogged Singapore style but if you have some pictures maybe this will present a different story. Would be useful to see some pictures if you don’t have any then no-one can help you really.
Starfighter
Hang on, this gets better 3/4 mile to the zebra and doing 10mph? At that speed the distance would be covered in 270 seconds or 4 1/2 minutes.

Come on, please give us fact to work on. I know that psychology kicks in post a trauma and people try to justify their actions and their decision making process that got them there. You seriously need to rise above this and learn from what you did.

I suspect that you need to look at your observational skills and overtaking technique
  • Why did you not se the zebra?
  • What were the other drivers in front doing and how did this influence your desciion making?
  • At what point did you commit to the overtake and how much vision did you have of the road ahead?
  • Where were you planning on getting back on your own side?
  • What contingency options had you planned on and why did you not take any of these?
  • And finally, why did you not stop when the whole situation ran out of your control?
You asked for options, based on the facts presented as sever people have pointed out your best option is to learn from the experience.



captain swoop
QUOTE (viper @ Mon, 7 Sep 2009 - 20:09) *
Come to think of it a zebra crossing would usually have an island in the middle


Do they?
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