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boostedls1
I received a copy of a NIP some 2 months after an alleged camera offence for which I've not received an original NIP. Because I'd not had the original I put it to one side and forgot about it. It's actually reached the 6 month date line and thus far I've heard nothing but having had a trawl around here I realise that maybe I should have completed the copy NIP so as not to fall foul of section 172.

I guess my question is, are you obliged to complete the 'copy' NIP even if the original hasn't been received? If so I'd better get on with it pronto. Thanks.
andy_foster
[Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard (including the detailed questions reached by clicking on the Additional Questions button on the second page), and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.
boostedls1
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - February 2009
Date of the NIP: - 4 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 40 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A610, Nottingham rd, codnor, derbys
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Not sure but there is a truvelo along there and it's a 30 mph iirc. I received a copy NIP on 4/4/09 or thereabouts and ignored it because it wasn't an original. i just found it and realised that it's about 6 months since the alleged offence.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:46:11 +0100

Thanks Wizard but is a copy NIP the same as an original? It arrived on 4th april or thereabouts and I didn't complete it.
boostedls1
Thankyou Andy, I've used the Wizard as suggested.
boostedls1
So, given the copy NIP arrived very late was I obliged to complete it? Thanks.
I am Weasel
Yes, you must ALWAYS respond to a S172 request otherwise you will be charged with "failing to furnish". The late arrival of the NIP can be a bar to prosecution if you can prove that you did not received anything earlier (not an easy thingto do)
The Rookie
The late NIP will probably be renederd a nullity, but the S172 request, a different legal entity just on the same piece of paper, is still totally valid.

Simon
boostedls1
Thank you for your help. I actually completed the copy NIP/172 and sent it back yesterday with proof of postage. It's just past 6 months since the offence so either it's been 'forgotten' or there's a summons on the way. At least I can prove I complied albeit it somewhat late.

If there's an update I'll report it here.
Lynnzer
OOPS......
It sounds to me your case was somewhat forgotten.
It's very unusual that you didn't hear anything for such a long time so there's a chance it may have gone astray in the system.
Looking at this entirely logically, if you've given your name as being the driver then they're really too late to go for the speeding offence. The normal course of events is to allow you a period of 28 days for a COFP if they feel they should offer you one. If you don't take up this offer in the 28 days they then go to court but your case would have passed the critical 6 month timescale so can't do that.
On the other hand, they can issue a summons for failure to provide driver details as requested for an extra month. So taking it from February to now is around 6 months (you don't say what the actual date was) so they have until sometime in September to do you for a S172 offence.

You may have just jogged their memory.........

Good luck
The Rookie
6months is the timeout for speeding, 6 months for the S172 started when the offence was commited, 28 days after you received the request, so they could still (and they have plenty of time) prosecute for S172. I can't see you having much of a defnec for waiting 3.5 months over the 28 days!

Simon
boostedls1
They never sent me an original s172, just a copy with 'Copy' written on it in big red letters. I'm not sure if that would be a legally enforcible document and it arrived out of time, way after the offence date with a polite letter saying they would be grateful I could complete it within 14 days. Usually I'd expect a bit more bluff and bluster, something along the lines of 'You must do this before so and so a date'.

As for a defence I would have thought they'd have contacted me in order to prosecute their case? They've had months. My address is on my v5 so they know where to visit or write.

I've sent it back now so I think I've complied but I'm still wondering if I needed to.
Lynnzer
QUOTE (boostedls1 @ Tue, 25 Aug 2009 - 11:39) *
They never sent me an original s172, just a copy with 'Copy' written on it in big red letters. I'm not sure if that would be a legally enforcible document and it arrived out of time, way after the offence date with a polite letter saying they would be grateful I could complete it within 14 days. Usually I'd expect a bit more bluff and bluster, something along the lines of 'You must do this before so and so a date'.

As for a defence I would have thought they'd have contacted me in order to prosecute their case? They've had months. My address is on my v5 so they know where to visit or write.

I've sent it back now so I think I've complied but I'm still wondering if I needed to.

Yup,
looks likely they'll stuff a S172 at you. You were given a further 14 days to complete and return and you didn't. No excuse for that.
Fingers crossed the system has forgotten you though.
boostedls1
Quick update.

Those nice chaps at the partnership have accepted my completed section 172 and gone for the easy £60. They sent me a conditional offer of a fixed penalty (dated 27th august), plus a few points. The offence date was 22/02/09.

We are some time past the 6 month cut off for a speeding summons so would I be correct in assuming they're out of time so can't do anything to enforce a speeding offence even if they do have a completed section 172? Basically the 'offer' is a bluff and they can't go for non compliance of the section 172 because they've made me the offer of the fixed penalty.
Northern
Your cofp gives you another 28 days to reply!
This should then take you past the deadline to lay info concerning a 172 charge, so it looks like you are in the clear!
Expect to recieve a reminder cofp from the scammers, as it is normal for them to try and bluff there way into getting your sixty quid! Just continue to ignor, as you seem home free now!
boostedls1
Thanks. Those were my thoughts to but nice to see somebody else shares the same opinion smile.gif I never rush these things.
The Rookie
There is nothing to stop them from accepting you're FP and summonsing for S172, let alone if you ignore it, although it does appear you may have slipped through the net, I wouldn't hold my breath....

Offence in Feb, the S172 would have arrived around the first March, S172 offence would then be the first April, so 6month timeout is around the 1st Ocotber.

Simon


boostedls1
^ That's interesting but surely if they've used the information from the section 172 to identify the driver and make a conditional offer they can't say I didn't comply with section 172?
andy_foster
An s. 172 form with sufficient information to issue a COFP does not necessarily comply with the requirements of s. 172 - in this case to provide the information within 28 days beginning with the date of service.

However, I would argue that where they have acted upon a late s. 172 by issuing a COFP, it would be an abuse of process to subsequently prosecute for the s. 172 offence.
boostedls1
Thank you for the replies. I'll write back to them towards the end of the 28 days and suggest they 'timed out'.
Northern
Don't write to them until after the deadline for the 172 charge to time out! I wouldn't bother writing at all to be honest! Just a waist of time!
I don't see how they can offer a cofp whilst laying info to the courts for a 172 charge, would have to be an abuse of the proccess!
One or the other, not both!
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