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Crazy
Got stopped on the motorway this evening for speeding ohmy.gif

The officer instructed me that he had video evidence of me speeding & that he had followed me for 0.6 mile with my speed averaging at 104.7mph.

He cautioned me & told me that I would be receiveing a NIP within 14 days for "exceeding the speed limit"

I did not sign anything or receive a producer to confirm that it was me driving wink.gif


Now I am going to plead guilty with mitigating circumstances but I am wondering if I am going to receive a ban or points as I have a clean license but I did previously recieve a 56 day ban for speeding 2 years ago.


What do you guys think will be the outcome???



Thanks
southpaw82
Your speed is in the highest bracket of the sentencing guidelines (101 to 100 mph). This indicates a ban of 7 to 56 days or six points. As you're in the middle of that bracket it could well go either way. Some good mitigation should see you with six points but you should be prepared for a ban, so don't drive to court. Your previous disqualification will count against you.
Crazy
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 00:51) *
Your speed is in the highest bracket of the sentencing guidelines (101 to 100 mph). This indicates a ban of 7 to 56 days or six points. As you're in the middle of that bracket it could well go either way. Some good mitigation should see you with six points but you should be prepared for a ban, so don't drive to court. Your previous disqualification will count against you.



Thanks for the quick reply.

2nd time in court for the same offence is what I was worrying about to be honest ohmy.gif working 2 jobs at the moment (Bloody Credit Crunch) so really need my license at the moment as both jobs involve driving so without a license I will be unemployed again.


So is 56 days the Maximum Ban & a Fine they can impose if they follow the sentecing guidlines???( I prefer to go into things expecting the worse)
anton
In my opinion your best tactic would be to
A.negotiate the speed down.
B. humbly appologise. it was a moment of madness
C. tell them you have got a slower mode of transport

my guess is that they will read about your previous ban and ignore it all.
I dont think 56 day ban is a rock solid ceiling, the fact you are a repeat offender gives them scope to go beyond.
Crazy
QUOTE (anton @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 06:20) *
In my opinion your best tactic would be to
A.negotiate the speed down.
B. humbly appologise. it was a moment of madness
C. tell them you have got a slower mode of transport

my guess is that they will read about your previous ban and ignore it all.
I dont think 56 day ban is a rock solid ceiling, the fact you are a repeat offender gives them scope to go beyond.


A. Negotiate my speed down mellow.gif how do I go about that???

B. Apologise is the first thing I plan to do when I get into court.

C. It was not even my car, it was a friends 2.0 Turbo Motor as I drive a 1.1 litre motor which I doubt would do 104MPH rolleyes.gif


So I could receive more than 56 days, even though my licencse is clean at the moment???
srg
QUOTE (Crazy @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 07:18) *
A. Negotiate my speed down mellow.gif how do I go about that???


You do something called a Newton Plea. In other words, you plead guilty to the offence of speeding, but dispute the speed.

QUOTE (Crazy @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 07:18) *
B. Apologise is the first thing I plan to do when I get into court.


Yes, suited and booted, appearing contrite, etc

QUOTE (Crazy @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 07:18) *
C. It was not even my car, it was a friends 2.0 Turbo Motor as I drive a 1.1 litre motor which I doubt would do 104MPH rolleyes.gif


Presumably insured for you to drive?
southpaw82
The sentencing guidelines are just that - guidelines. The court is free to depart from them with good reason. The fact that you have a previous ban of 56 days is likely to make them consider a ban in excess of the guidelines. This is not to say that it is a foregone conclusion but something you should be aware of.

You should also be aware that a Newton hearing is not always a success. Where the police have an accurate reading the prosecution will not necessarily accept a lower one from you. They may well resist you at the hearing and the court may well accept the speed as being 104.
Crazy
QUOTE (srg @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 08:49) *
QUOTE (Crazy @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 07:18) *
A. Negotiate my speed down mellow.gif how do I go about that???


You do something called a Newton Plea. In other words, you plead guilty to the offence of speeding, but dispute the speed.

QUOTE (Crazy @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 07:18) *
B. Apologise is the first thing I plan to do when I get into court.


Yes, suited and booted, appearing contrite, etc

QUOTE (Crazy @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 07:18) *
C. It was not even my car, it was a friends 2.0 Turbo Motor as I drive a 1.1 litre motor which I doubt would do 104MPH rolleyes.gif


Presumably insured for you to drive?



Yes I was insured to drive the car.

QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 13:26) *
The sentencing guidelines are just that - guidelines. The court is free to depart from them with good reason. The fact that you have a previous ban of 56 days is likely to make them consider a ban in excess of the guidelines. This is not to say that it is a foregone conclusion but something you should be aware of.

You should also be aware that a Newton hearing is not always a success. Where the police have an accurate reading the prosecution will not necessarily accept a lower one from you. They may well resist you at the hearing and the court may well accept the speed as being 104.



I am not going to go through the hassle of disputing the speed as I am guilty but I really cannot afford to lose my license at the moment sad.gif

If I plead guilty on the NIP & include a letter of mitigating reasons/circumstances do you think they will deal with it without me going to court???
southpaw82
No - it would be extraordinary for them to offer a fixed penalty at this speed. Barring some cock up this matter will result in a summons to court.
Crazy
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 16 Aug 2009 - 19:22) *
No - it would be extraordinary for them to offer a fixed penalty at this speed. Barring some cock up this matter will result in a summons to court.


When should I expect the NIP or could it take a while???

Both of my employers are being very understanding about this situation & my main employer has offered to write me a a letter/reference & my secondary employer has even offered to come to court to explain that he will not be able to employ me if I receive a ban.

Not to sure there is much that I can do above that, or do you guys have any advice???
The Rookie
Yopu almost certainly had a verbil NIP at the roadside, although if he said they would post one, then within 14 days of the alleged offence, but if you had a verbal one there is no need for a paper one.

You'll need a hardship argument that implies its less pain to you and more a pain to others, its your punishment after all....

Simon
Durzel
Since your previous 56 day ban also for speeding is I'm presuming for a similar level of transgression from the posted limit (i.e. its at the top end of the disqualification guidelines) you should prepare yourself for another ban at least as long again. As has been said already the previous ban will definitely count against you regardless of what mitigation you present.

Also bear in mind that mitigation has to be in respect of what effect there would be on other people if you got banned. The fact your employer would have to let you go personally if you got banned is treated as a commensurate consequence of you being found guilty.
Crazy
QUOTE (Durzel @ Mon, 17 Aug 2009 - 15:08) *
Since your previous 56 day ban also for speeding is I'm presuming for a similar level of transgression from the posted limit (i.e. its at the top end of the disqualification guidelines) you should prepare yourself for another ban at least as long again. As has been said already the previous ban will definitely count against you regardless of what mitigation you present.

Also bear in mind that mitigation has to be in respect of what effect there would be on other people if you got banned. The fact your employer would have to let you go personally if you got banned is treated as a commensurate consequence of you being found guilty.


Yes my previous ban (2 Years ago) for speeding was for an average of 97.4mph in a 40mph zone on a dual carriageway late at night & I received a 56 day ban sad.gif


So by the sounds of it I am up SH!T STREET!!!

How do I obtain the calibration Certificates for the speed measuring equipment???
southpaw82
It might be worth knowing how he measured your speed. If it was some type of in car speed/distance device then there's a chance it is not an approved device, rendering it's measurement inadmissible. However, on a motorway the word of one officer is enough to convict you. Obviously, if they can't admit the evidence from the device then they're relying on his opinion of your speed only and a Newton hearing may bear more fruit.

Of course, if he also took a reading from his speedometer you're buggered.
Crazy
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 17 Aug 2009 - 16:20) *
It might be worth knowing how he measured your speed. If it was some type of in car speed/distance device then there's a chance it is not an approved device, rendering it's measurement inadmissible. However, on a motorway the word of one officer is enough to convict you. Obviously, if they can't admit the evidence from the device then they're relying on his opinion of your speed only and a Newton hearing may bear more fruit.

Of course, if he also took a reading from his speedometer you're buggered.


The reading he gave me was from a digital device in his car that had the distance & speed logged on the screen.
Big_Rat
I'm not going to debate the issue on whether it's a type approved device, but don't be suprised if the speeding evidence from the device is used in court, we still use police pilot and it's always been used in court (even recently)
southpaw82
QUOTE (Big_Rat @ Mon, 17 Aug 2009 - 16:31) *
I'm not going to debate the issue on whether it's a type approved device, but don't be suprised if the speeding evidence from the device is used in court, we still use police pilot and it's always been used in court (even recently)

I'm sure it is if it's not challenged. How many times has it been admitted when challenged as not being type approved?

Big_Rat
Haven't got the foggiest, just didn't want the OP going to court thinking, they've got no evidence
southpaw82
Quite. This is where specialist advice really is worth its weight in gold. The average defendant and indeed the average solicitor won't cotton on to the type approval argument. Unless it's a Cleartone Puma then it's not an approved device, merely prescribed, and as such it's record is not admissible.
Crazy
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 17 Aug 2009 - 20:48) *
Quite. This is where specialist advice really is worth its weight in gold. The average defendant and indeed the average solicitor won't cotton on to the type approval argument. Unless it's a Cleartone Puma then it's not an approved device, merely prescribed, and as such it's record is not admissible.


So are you saying that the device the used to measure my speed is not an approved device???
nemo
QUOTE (Crazy @ Tue, 18 Aug 2009 - 02:00) *
So are you saying that the device the used to measure my speed is not an approved evice???

That would depend upon the device used.

This might be a case where you need to view the officer's statement before deciding whether to fight or fold.

And to do that, you might need to enter an initial not guilty plea when (if) a summons arrives. One downside of entering a not guilty plea (if you subsequently decide to change your plea to guilty), is that you would not qualify for the maximum amount of discount normally availiable for a guilty plea entered at the first reasonable opportunity (up to 1/3 off the fine).
Crazy
QUOTE (nemo @ Tue, 18 Aug 2009 - 07:38) *
QUOTE (Crazy @ Tue, 18 Aug 2009 - 02:00) *
So are you saying that the device the used to measure my speed is not an approved evice???

That would depend upon the device used.

This might be a case where you need to view the officer's statement before deciding whether to fight or fold.

And to do that, you might need to enter an initial not guilty plea when (if) a summons arrives. One downside of entering a not guilty plea (if you subsequently decide to change your plea to guilty), is that you would not qualify for the maximum amount of discount normally availiable for a guilty plea entered at the first reasonable opportunity (up to 1/3 off the fine).



If pleading guilty at the first reasonable opportunity is it only the fine that is reduced???
southpaw82
Only the fine.
Crazy
The Summons arrived this morning ohmy.gif

I am due in court near the end of May 2010 rolleyes.gif


But one thing that seems odd is at the bottom of the letter it states the offence:

"On 15/8/2009 at M5 Motorway drove a vehicle, namely A ******* ****** VEHICLE REGISTRATION NUMBER **** ***, on a Motorway, namely THE M5 NORTHBOUND JUNCTION 4-3, at a speed exceeding 70miles per hour Contrary to regulation 3 of the Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974, section 17(4) of the road traffic regulation act 1984 and schedule 2 to the Road Traffic offenders act 1988."
This offence carries penalty points.



There is no statement from the officer stating what speed I was doing & no where on the summons does it state the actual speed either.

Is this how all summons come as I thought they would have included a statement from the officer regarding the offece???
Big Tone
Just a quickie Crazy…

In court you could show contrition by blubbering, (what an old friend of mine called “having to do the big one”). I know I always give-in to a woman who blubbers at me

Of course prevention is always better than cure so try no to go so crazy in future or at least make sure you know what’s behind you. Out of interest, was it an unmarked traf pol or the full monty? If the later then shame on you for poor observation.

It’s a pity banning you is regarded as a cure by many, or most, when all it will do is put you and you family though hardship. In other cases, where the bread winner has to provide bread, I’m sure some turn to crime after a belly full of British 'justice'.

Some “cure“ that is, encouraging people towards real crime because an offence which didn’t hurt anyone has been committed. Best I stop there

Good luck

Edit: See also http://www.driving-law.co.uk/offences/speeding.asp
Crazy
Should there be statements from the two officers that followed & stopped me in with this summons???
nemo
QUOTE (Crazy @ Tue, 22 Dec 2009 - 11:59) *
Should there be statements from the two officers that followed & stopped me in with this summons???

The short answer is no.
CountryCousin
QUOTE (Crazy @ Tue, 22 Dec 2009 - 11:59) *
Should there be statements from the two officers that followed & stopped me in with this summons???


The long answer is they don't have to include an officers statement with the summons but the majority of Police forces probably would do so in the case of a manned stop. Unfortunately some less helpful SCPs seem to withold almost all informatiom, perhaps on the basis that this will scare as many people as possible in to pleading Guilty.

Having not got the witness statement with the summons The CPS should at least disclose it to you a number of weeks before you get to court for the trial if you contact them pressing for disclosure of the statement(s). You could also write to the court asking for a Pre Trial Review to be held at which point you could then set out your need for the witness statement and any other relevant unused material that you believe to be in the possession of the Police (the CPS should produce a schedule of all Unused Material in time for a Pre Trial Review if one is held) to be disclosed to you.

If they failed to do any of this or hold a Pre Trial Review you ought to be able to get an adjournment to a later date at the first trial hearing (with costs of the adjournment awarded against the CPS) in order for the witness statement to be provided to you and/or you to have adequate time to come up with questions for the officer based upon the contents of the witness statement.
nemo
QUOTE (CountryCousin @ Tue, 29 Dec 2009 - 22:33) *
The long answer is they don't have to include an officers statement with the summons but the majority of Police forces probably would do so in the case of a manned stop.

But the police don't issue the summons, that action is undertaken by the court.

QUOTE (CountryCousin @ Tue, 29 Dec 2009 - 22:33) *
Unfortunately some less helpful SCPs seem to withold almost all informatiom, perhaps on the basis that this will scare as many people as possible in to pleading Guilty.

There is no statutory obligation for the defendant to be provided with copies of any 'evidence' until such time as a not guilty plea has been entered.

QUOTE (CountryCousin @ Tue, 29 Dec 2009 - 22:33) *
Having not got the witness statement with the summons The CPS should at least disclose it to you a number of weeks before you get to court for the trial...

Upon submission of a not guilty plea, any evidence upon which the prosecution intended to rely would require to be disclosed to the defendant within statutorily defined timescales.
CountryCousin
QUOTE (nemo @ Wed, 30 Dec 2009 - 08:07) *
But the police don't issue the summons, that action is undertaken by the court.


I thought that In quite a few areas the Police seem to be sent the Summons documentation by the court and then attach their own ancillary paperwork such as officer's witness statement or still photo from the camera device (if one exists). This seems to be why summons packs get issued with postage franking marks for the the Police Criminal Justice Unit and not for the court that nominally issued the Summons (and/or indeed why some of those attached documents to the Summons may post date the Summons issue date). If not where does the typical two or three week delay between the printing of a summons document and it being sent out in the post to the accused come from then?

QUOTE
There is no statutory obligation for the defendant to be provided with copies of any 'evidence' until such time as a not guilty plea has been entered.


Nonetheless where a Police or civilian officer is involved in the detection of an offence it is fairly common practice for witness statements to be sent out to the accused with a summons pack and less usual for such statements to be withheld, even though they can be if the Police don't want to include them at this stage. It is rather more common for still photos from the camera device showing the alleged offence to be withheld until the CPS disclosure stage, even though some Police forces willingly send them out with the summons pack.

QUOTE (CountryCousin @ Tue, 29 Dec 2009 - 22:33) *
Upon submission of a not guilty plea, any evidence upon which the prosecution intended to rely would require to be disclosed to the defendant within statutorily defined timescales.


Surely that is only the theory and not the practice and in many more unhelpful CPS and/or SCP areas no evidence or schedule of unused material is provided to a defendant before either a pre-trial review hearing (which frequently no longer take place unless a defendant chases the court to arrange one) or before the first day of the trial. It seems wrong to suggest to the OP that they can automatically expect the CPS to voluntarily send them any evidence they are using in the case and/or the schedule of unused material before the sceduled day of the Not Guilty trial hearing when very often no such disclosure actually takes place at all in speeding cases unless a defendant is aware of all their rights to it and chases the CPS to get it by telephone call and/or fax or letter.

A defendant should surely expect that as a worst case they will get no disclosure whatsoever before the start of their trial unless they start communicating early on by letter with the CPS to demand their right to it after they have entered a Not Guilty plea and/or unless they submit a Defence Statement several weeks before trial and/or they apply for a separate disclosure hearing under Section 8 of CPIA 1996.
nemo
The OP asked whether statements from the officers involved should have been issued with the summons. The answer to that question is no, on the grounds that there is no statutory requirement to do so.

The fact that, in some instances, summons may be accompanied by 'evidence' (which would be at the discretion of the issuing court) is not really relevant to the OP's case.

And the requirements of disclosure are strict, despite suggestions to the contrary - but let's not derail the OP's thread any further until such time as the issue of disclosure actually becomes relevant.
Crazy
QUOTE (Crazy @ Mon, 21 Dec 2009 - 12:46) *
The Summons arrived this morning ohmy.gif

I am due in court near the end of May 2010 rolleyes.gif


But one thing that seems odd is at the bottom of the letter it states the offence:

"On 15/8/2009 at M5 Motorway drove a vehicle, namely A ******* ****** VEHICLE REGISTRATION NUMBER **** ***, on a Motorway, namely THE M5 NORTHBOUND JUNCTION 4-3, at a speed exceeding 70miles per hour Contrary to regulation 3 of the Motorways Traffic (Speed Limit) Regulations 1974, section 17(4) of the road traffic regulation act 1984 and schedule 2 to the Road Traffic offenders act 1988."
This offence carries penalty points.



There is no statement from the officer stating what speed I was doing & no where on the summons does it state the actual speed either.

Is this how all summons come as I thought they would have included a statement from the officer regarding the offece???



Had another letter come through this morning stating:

The cases listed below were to be heard on **th May 2010 at 2:00pm at Ludlow Magistrates Court. The court will now hear them **th January 2010 at 2:00pm at Courtroom **, Telford Magistrates Court, Telford Square, Malinsgate, Telford TF3 4HX.

This is:
Brought forward & transferred to Telford Magistrates Court to enable the case to be heard at an earlier date rolleyes.gif



Can they do this at such short notice as that only gives a week to arrange time off from work & sort out other things???
ford poplar
You could request an adjournment but it may only increase the pain if you intend to plead guilty. If you plead guilty by post and they are considering a ban you will still have to attend court at a later date.
You have had since Aug to get defence sorted with help from here and your employers are aware of the case so time off at short notice should not be a problem.
Your only chance of a NG plea is if the device is NOT the one mentioned by Southpaw.

Attend Telford Mag Court this month suited & booted to show respect and contrition.
susie_mcg
A friend of mine was recently caught at 102 on the M6 near Carlisle. He arrived at court dressed very smartly and was remorseful for his actions. He received 6 points and £500 fine (although I think the fine was relative to his income). He had a clean licence though.

You say you were banned before, other than the ban do you have any points?

Anyway, I think the advice you have had here is very wise. Dress like you're going for an interview and show remorse! My friend told me most other people that were being seen in the court that day hadn't bothered to create a good impression. Rightly or wrongly that first impression will count!

Best of luck keeping your licence.
Crazy
QUOTE (susie_mcg @ Tue, 19 Jan 2010 - 09:12) *
A friend of mine was recently caught at 102 on the M6 near Carlisle. He arrived at court dressed very smartly and was remorseful for his actions. He received 6 points and £500 fine (although I think the fine was relative to his income). He had a clean licence though.

You say you were banned before, other than the ban do you have any points?

Anyway, I think the advice you have had here is very wise. Dress like you're going for an interview and show remorse! My friend told me most other people that were being seen in the court that day hadn't bothered to create a good impression. Rightly or wrongly that first impression will count!

Best of luck keeping your licence.



No points at all, clean license except a ban for speeding nearly 3 years ago.


The guidelines state anything from 7days - 56days and a fine dependant on income but as people have been telling me they are only guidelines & the Magistrate can over step them.






The Rookie
No the Magistrates have strict guidelines to comply with, punishment at variance with those by more than an insignificant margin can usually be succesfully apealed.

Simon
Big Tone
As said, get your Tux on and cut your hair - unless you’re an egg head like me in which case get a short back and shine. Also, if you sound like a scumbag try and change your voice to sound more posh, like my sister does when she on the telephone to someone. (What’s that about)

Another thought I’ve had which is outside the box but quite doable. See your GP and tell him this whole thing is getting you depressed and tearful and you can’t ‘get it up’ anymore. If you submit this as evidence of your state of mind they may well show more clemency.
susie_mcg
My friend was expecting a ban for his speed and the judge came down hard on some of the "scumbag" types that were seen before him. He was relieved and surprised to keep his licence and happily accepted the heavy fine otherwise he would have lost his job.

I cannot stress how much of a good impression you need to make and like Big Tone said get your telephone voice on! I'm not saying it will guarantee leniency but it certainly won't do any harm.
Crazy
Went to court suited & booted with my solicitor & ended up with a 14 day ban & a £400fine which is not too bad.


Two quick questions:

Do I have to re-apply for my license or will they just re-send it to me???

If my ban started at Friday 29th Jan at 3:00pm does that mean I can technically start driving again at Friday 12th Feb at 3:00pm as that will have been 14 days exactley???
Top Cat
QUOTE (Crazy @ Mon, 8 Feb 2010 - 13:42) *
ended up with a 14 day ban & a £400fine which is not too bad.


Not a bad result for you,but.....

Be prepared for a blow to the solar plexus when you re-apply for your insurance after a ban.

Insurance companies don't like driving bans.
jimster
QUOTE (Top Cat @ Mon, 8 Feb 2010 - 14:47) *
Insurance companies don't like driving bans.


Actually they love them … gives them more easy income



The only thing they don’t like is paying out money on claims angry.gif


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