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Full Version: PCN box junction shaftesbury avenue Wc2, help please.
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
ned
Hello all,



I’m looking for some help please; I’ve just had a PCN from Camden council for "Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited in Shaftesbury Avenue Wc2 (shaftesbury ave)"

It’s the box junction just before the Shaftesbury theatre on Bloomsbury Street. Looking at the forum I see I’m not the only one who has been sent a pcn from this location. I received the notice on the 14/08/09, eight days after the event and from what I can understand of the letter only leaving me 6 days to pay the discounted price.



I do have the video and also quit a clear memory of the event as at the time it happened I thought “o’ no” to myself. I entered the box with all traffic moving. The box didn’t have any stationary traffic in it to my recollection; the video starts late but shows the traffic moving. A car in front changed lanes and backed up the junction. This is not seen on the video as a bus is in the way of much of the shot.



Reading other posts about box junctions I’m hoping I my have a chance to contests that the box is incorrectly painted. (The bottom pic shows how it extends far more then 10% of the radiuses of the corner curb.

Theirs also comments on the forum about the wording of the PCN. I’ve enclosed a pic of min and if anybody can help tell me if the wording is good or bad on this notice and any suggestions as to the best way to precede I’d be very grateful.


Teufel
the period for making reps is wrong - should be from date of SERVICE not date of notice
- they have unlawfully shortened the period by the time to serve the notice - unfair and a procedural impropriety

pcn is invalid


London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/localact2003/ukla_20030003_en_1

sched 1
1(3)
The enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served

camden really are USELESS
ned
Teufel thanks,

I’m pretty happy that Camden are useless, competent and malicious is a grim combination.

Do I send back a letter of representations pointing out there mistake or do I have to let it run to the independent adjudicator? I don’t want them to send me out a corrected PCN!
Neil B
Wording as Teufel says.

++ Further wording flaw - fails to mention Schedule 1 as well -(mandatory)

Box issue as you described.

Previous box still visible on the road.

Hign probability of lane changing traffic obstructing you as two lanes go to three. Have you checked the vid?

-----------

They do about two people EVERY time the lights change.

ned
Thanks Neil B,

I’m looking up schedule 1 now.

Yes I have looked at the video it doesn’t show much other than me being stuck! The bus in the pic on the far right cant proceed down the road (which is clear) but because of the camera angle you cant see the vehicle that is in the middle of the two lanes stopping me and the bus from making forward progress.

The whole think is a infuriating stitch up. Can I highlight there wording errors in the formal representations against paying the penalty charge or do I have to sit and wait of the independent adjudicator? I don’t want to give them ammunition to correct the PCN within their allotted time frame. I haven’t had to go through this before so really don’t now anything about the legality’s of the PCN process. The fact that it’s legal at all is a wonder. It feels like a legal mugging procedure.
Neil B
You use everything from the off.

they cannot reissue a PCN and won't anyway since they are going to tell you their PCN is compliant.

If the vid doesn't start until you are in the box and doesn't show you entering then I think others will explain why there is no contravention.

ned
Thanks for the info about using the information and its good to now that they cant move the ‘goal posts’ any more.

The video does show me entering into the box from camera 229c with the view of the traffic in front of me (middle lane) obscured by the bus. So you cant see that I entered the box with all traffic moving (the box had no stationary traffic in it when I entered). Then the video camera switches to 228 c, which is behind the traffic, by which time everything has happened and so offers no useful information as to why my lane has become blocked. The only possibly useful bit of information from this is that you can just see that the road in front of the bus is clear all the way to the next traffic light, but the bus cant go forward. Again the camera doesn’t offer any explanation as to what is holding the bus up.

If they have more video footage, which they must. Can they use this against me if this goes to an independent adjudicator without showing me? The way the footage is cut and pasted in the video I have does look like it’s been done to favour them.


CORRECTION: the video starts with half my car already in the box and moving. Does this help with no contravention?
ned
I am guessing that this has got to be good as they haven’t provided me with evidence of me entering the box junction and the charge is “entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited”
Neil B
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 15 Aug 2009 - 11:52) *
++ Further wording flaw - fails to mention Schedule 1 as well -(mandatory)


Don't just look at Sched 1.


From the main text -

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/localact2003/u..._2#pt2-pb1-l1g4

s4 (8)(a)(viii) - Is it there? I think not. ''A penalty Charge Notice MUST state -''

Teufel
yes

the contravention occours on entering when you should not

what happens after you enter is not relevant

search moneyboxjunction
ned
Teufel, Neil M,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to help me with this, after spending a good chunk of the weekend looking at this forum and moneyboxjunction. I feel empowered. You two put a lot of work into this forum and I just wanted to let you know that I’m really grateful. Some one else helped with advice about looking at the video, their post is gone, but thanks.
I’m going to tick “contravention did not take place box” and list all their failings and question the legality of the box. I’ll let the forum no haw I get on and post any information that may be helpful for others.
roydburn
I received a PCN for exactly the same offence. After careful research, I appealed on the basis that the yellow box did not conform to the TSRGD 2002. My specific point was that the internal angles were beyond the permitted parameters.

Unfortunately Camden called my bluff and provided a copy of a special dispensation from the Department for Transport. So if you are considering appealing on these grounds, it's probably a waste of time.
Matts Dad
QUOTE (roydburn @ Mon, 17 Aug 2009 - 10:17) *
Unfortunately Camden called my bluff and provided a copy of a special dispensation from the Department for Transport.


Could you post it up here ?
Neil B
QUOTE (roydburn @ Mon, 17 Aug 2009 - 10:17) *
I received a PCN for exactly the same offence. After careful research, I appealed on the basis that the yellow box did not conform to the TSRGD 2002. My specific point was that the internal angles were beyond the permitted parameters.

Unfortunately Camden called my bluff and provided a copy of a special dispensation from the Department for Transport. So if you are considering appealing on these grounds, it's probably a waste of time.


They cannot possibly have permission to leave the old box still clearly visible! I bet DfT don't know that.


please show the special authority doc for others' benefit.

Is your case still current cos you can beat them on docs and circumstances?

-

roydburn
I would be happy to... although I am struggling to work out how to post an attachment.
roydburn
Okay I figured it out...






ned
Hi roydburn,

Thanks for the documents. I can’t make out the date stamp on the last technical drawing, I'm assuming that it dose correlate to the certificate but wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t.
ned
I've just been up to the box junction with a camera to get pics of the older markings on the road. They have been blacked out, so i don't think that this is an avenue of attack any longer.
Neil B
QUOTE (ned @ Mon, 17 Aug 2009 - 12:29) *
I've just been up to the box junction with a camera to get pics of the older markings on the road. They have been blacked out, so i don't think that this is an avenue of attack any longer.


Not blacked out in the pics of the 'DoNotPassGo' thread. 
ned
This is true, but i did go and look with the express purpose of getting hi quality pictures to emphasize this point. The blacking out may be new? although i would say that the top two pictures in DoNotPassGo 's thread do look like they have been filled. The large Google image does clearly show the old box but the date of this image is only specified as 2009. roydburn may well be able to use this point with his fight depending on when the old box has been coloured in. His PNC may show the old box as what i looked at this morning did look like it had recently been done.
tigernuts
are you able to post a better quality image of the Camden map of the junction please? i am looking for a map reference to it.
Neil B
Don't bother. Steetview is hardly likely to be relevant as I've recentl been told it has all changed.

If you have a PCN - tell us - and what the vid shows.

It is a notorious lane bottleneck trap with ever so helpful pelican crossing shortly afterwards. It is winnable on that basis depending on circumstances of lane changing vehicles and vid.

A friend that I helped win here tells me he watches hundreds get caught every day (HC driver).
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