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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
hsuffyan
Hi guys (and gals),

I was visiting my sister-in-law on sunday afternoon who needed a few things for her newborn. (she had pelvic joint pain during the pregnancy and is still barely mobile, and the baby wasnt feeding properly). I parked in the car park near the flats and popped up to drop the stuff off and when I returned my car had gone. My sister in law did give me a visitors permit just in case but the car had been towed before I could display it. They said I should have parked in visitors, which is not clearly signposted, or visible from the main car park. Its out on the street and you can even tell it is a visitors bay. The main sign faces the street and cant be seen from the car park, it doesnt say anything about the cost of the tow.

I called the number on the sign and the guy told me I had to pay £200 for the release and I demanded to know how long they waited before it was removed and he told me it was instant removal (can that be true!?) and he confirmed that they were a private company. Knowing that this would be one I would have to fight retrospectively, I turned up to pay. The pound was sign posted to look like a council one, but all the trucks and staff had ELV Ltd on them. The counters even had LB TH and LB Hackney signs on them. I demanded to see the SIA badges of the staff who removed my car and the person who would be collecting payment. The women was very cagey and kept telling me to appeal to the council, and I politely said that I need to make sure that the person who took the vehicle had the proper documents to act in that capacity otherwise it is theft and I will not pay thieves and rather report my car as taken without consent. She disappeared in the back for ages and finally produced a badge for someone (I suspect only a handful of the scum are SIA approved) who I am sure wasnt the same person who did the tow as she initially said he was out.

I paid with a credit card (to provide an extra avenue for recourse), took the pathetic looking appeal form (which goes back to the company) and left.

I know Shepherdess got a lot of help in her thread (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=34782&st=0), but I dont think a conclusion was reached. I will post pictures and docs tonight, but all the paperwork is the same as hers, other than I never received a Parking Ticket (invoice!!) from them.

I have a feeling that my best bet would be to go via the Small Claims court? and not bother with the laughable appeals process?

Any help greatly appreciated!

dave-o
Send a Notice Before ction giving them 14 days to pay up, then make your claim.

See kingfrank7's thread. He has recently had a victory.
hsuffyan
ive read kingfranks thread. So I think it is better to serve the NBA and then wait. I will post all the docs and pics tonight, and hopefully someone can help me draft the NBA.

Shall I in the meantime get my credit card to freeze the payment? Shall I say the money was taken under duress?
ManxRed
QUOTE (hsuffyan @ Mon, 6 Jul 2009 - 17:20) *
ive read kingfranks thread. So I think it is better to serve the NBA and then wait. I will post all the docs and pics tonight, and hopefully someone can help me draft the NBA.

Shall I in the meantime get my credit card to freeze the payment? Shall I say the money was taken under duress?


Yes. But prepare to be fobbed off. Keep trying to take it higher, don't take no for an answer. When you get to someone quite senior explain that you are more than happy to send copies of the paperwork relating to the dispute - the NBA and the Small Claims details. If they still won't play ball say that you will settle the next statement (apart from the clamping charge), cut up the card and close the account. If they say they will pursue you for the clamping charge then let them know you look forward to seeing them explain in court why they decided to disregard the Consumer Credit Act despite you sending them all that paperwork.
hsuffyan
awesome stuff! I knew the guys on this forum would be great help!
Teufel
an instant removal is clearly unreaosnable
Ihate Clampers
QUOTE (ManxRed @ Mon, 6 Jul 2009 - 17:39) *
Yes. But prepare to be fobbed off. Keep trying to take it higher, don't take no for an answer. When you get to someone quite senior explain that you are more than happy to send copies of the paperwork relating to the dispute - the NBA and the Small Claims details. If they still won't play ball say that you will settle the next statement (apart from the clamping charge), cut up the card and close the account. If they say they will pursue you for the clamping charge then let them know you look forward to seeing them explain in court why they decided to disregard the Consumer Credit Act despite you sending them all that paperwork.


Hmm... and bing goes your credit file in the process unfortunately. I agree that you'll probably get no where. I recently tried to do a chargeback to by speaking to the highest level. They pointed out to me (and I kinda think its fair) that I have to prove its an unlawful charge. I can see where they are coming from, because as we all know clamping is sadly still legal in England and Wales.

I've personally taken the landowners and clampers to court as per the advice on this forum. My CC are aware that the transaction is being disputed, but I have still had to pay it. CC interest is far higher than the courts 8% and just don't want to fight that with them! If I win either by default or all the way, then I can prove to the CC that the charge was unlawful, give me a refund, oh and its not £400, but £500 because of my costs and interest as per the judgement.

The joys of Section 75! :
The claim is not limited to the amount of the credit card transaction. Customers can claim for all losses caused by the breach of contract or misrepresentation. And this applies even if all they paid by credit card was the deposit.
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publ...ditcards-31.htm
dave-o
QUOTE (Ihate Clampers @ Mon, 6 Jul 2009 - 18:59) *
Hmm... and bing goes your credit file in the process unfortunately.



Bollox.

Explain the process for a company requesting a CCJ. I'm sure you'll see how if it were to go to court, the OP would be able to show that he has explained it was an unlawful charge and urged the CC company to act according to their T&Cs, but was refused. Historically, CC companies usually buckle under the above method.

However, i wouldn't advise a chargeback this time. The court claim will be against TH who we know are not going to phoenix, and we have a documented case of them paying up when pressured. I say go with the NBA and small court claim.
hsuffyan
here are some of the pics of the signage. the signs dont even face the car park. how can anyone realistically stop and read that sign when approaching the car park?





cant even see the sign from the car park.


you cant even tell that yellow marking is a visitors bay. it looks like its on the main road.


i'll scan their dodgy paper work tomorrow. the woman (probably on purpose) spelt my name wrong and my address wrong.

Can anyone help me draft the NBA by giving me some points that I need to cover?
dave-o
The sign doesn't mention a monetary amount for towing.

I'll help you with an NBA if no-one else offers.

First though i would like to see a scan of the receipt. Remove your personal details, but leave the PPC's details on it.
hsuffyan
i read juancruz's thread very carefully and kingfranks. I demanded an SIA number and the woman stamped it with hers, the same Wendy O Connell that stamped another persons receipt (Soppi). I also asked for the SIA of person who towed my vehicle, and she eventually dug up someones SIA number who I am sure wasnt the same person who took the car cos when I asked earlier she said he was out on a 'tow'. So i think they have some people who are registered and some who arent, and they just use each others numbers.

In my NBA I am going to ask for the names of the people who towed the car, and they will probably give different names to the person who apparently towed my car (according the women and the number), which should be another noose around their necks.
dave-o
Yes, that sounds like a good plan.

Still, post up a scan of that receipt when you get a chance.
Glacier2
They are unlikely to respond to the LBA.
hsuffyan
thanks guys, receipt will be up tomorrow. i know this has been asked before, but has anyone actually made the council cough up? both the other guys went cold, although kingfrank is still the process i think.
Glacier2
KingFrank got a default judgement. biggrin.gif
dave-o
QUOTE (hsuffyan @ Tue, 21 Jul 2009 - 23:27) *
thanks guys, receipt will be up tomorrow. i know this has been asked before, but has anyone actually made the council cough up? both the other guys went cold, although kingfrank is still the process i think.



As above, KingFrank has a court order for LBTH to cough up.

It's definitely worth seeing it through.
hsuffyan
QUOTE (dave-o @ Tue, 21 Jul 2009 - 16:30) *
Yes, that sounds like a good plan.

Still, post up a scan of that receipt when you get a chance.


Heres a scan of their shoddy receipt. No signature nothing. Daylight extortion!



The worst hand writing in the world. The SIA number does check out, but I am sure everyone isnt registered.



Here is their usual piece of crap regarding an appeal.

hsuffyan
Hi guys, any advice based on the docs posted above? Thanjs,
Glacier2
All rubbish.

You are under no obligation to follow their appeals procedures. Letter before action and then claim.
hsuffyan
im gonna draft along the lines:

a) no indication of monetary cost of towing/clamping
b) immediate removal is unreasonable
c) mitigating circumstances
d) ask for name of operatives who conducted tow
e) deliberate mistake of details on forms?
dave-o
I would argue that the second document is not part of the receipt.

Therefore, the receipt does not include:
SIA number
Name of operative
Signature of operative

Thoughts? Glacier?


And you musn't forget:
-Was not aware of any risk of towing, so therefore could not have entered into an agreement to be towed (Vine v Waltham Forest)
Glacier2
I would agree that the details are not on the receipt as required by law.

I would also be sure to emphaise the Vine case.
dave-o
In fact, i would not even make any mention of the second document. So they've scrawled an SIA number and name on that? I suppose they kept a copy for themselves? Yeah right. Come on guys, make an effort for your £260.

So, write the NBA as if that second document didn't exist, i.e. the legally required info I mentioned earlier isn't on the receipt. I'm not suggesting lying; if someone in official capacity asked you if you have that document, tell them. But it's a fair assumption that it is not part of the receipt.

The absence of these details and the vine v WF argument are your two strongest points IMO.
hsuffyan
thanks guys, ill run a draft by you soon. I read the Vine v WF case, and its quite confusing. The judge agreed that after seeing the sign it can be assumed the person has agreed to it? I am a bit lost, but I know you guys know your stuff. Just a bit confused here.
dave-o
Here's the specific bit of Vine i always quote:

"The appellant’s case on the central issue is that…the act of clamping the appellant’s car was a clear trespass, to which the respondents had no defence unless they could establish that the appellant had consented to her car being clamped or alternatively had voluntarily assumed the risk of her car being clamped. If the appellant had not seen the notice, then she could not have consented to, or voluntarily assumed the risk, of her car being clamped.
.................
The recorder found that Mrs Vine did not see the sign and Mr Mott accepts - with some reluctance, perhaps - that he cannot challenge that finding in this court. That is sufficient for her to succeed on the facts of this case."


You didn't see any signs warning about towing right? You weren't aware that you ran the risk of being towed?
hsuffyan
sorted! and I certainly didnt see anything about the financial consequences of being towed either.
hsuffyan
QUOTE (hsuffyan @ Thu, 23 Jul 2009 - 14:57) *
sorted! and I certainly didnt see anything about the financial consequences of being towed either.


right, its been a while and ive had a busy few months. ive got some time now to do the legwork to get my moneyback from this scum. will get a NBA up tonight or tomorrow and then its rocknroll!
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