Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Advice: N.Wales A499 46mph in 30 Zone
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
burns863
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - May 2009
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A499 Pwllheli (30mph), Gwynedd
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Alleged to be doing 46mph in 30mph zone. I know I was definitely driving down that road at the time of the alleged offence (travelling in the opposite direction to Pwllheli). However, I did not see any camera van/mobile camera. I am normally extra vigilant in NW especially through 30MPH stretches and the NIP came as quite a surprise.

I phoned the number on the NIP to query and was told I could not be given an exact location but I have retraced my steps and have an idea where it must have been. They told me it was a mobile speed trap.

Should I request the photographic evidence before returning the NIP? Are there any further steps I should take? If not for anything else but for future reference? As I guess this is going to be something I'll have to take on the chin. I guess with the speed of the offense I am unlikely to be offered a place on a SAC?

Thought I'd add I did receive an SP30 in England back in Nov 2005 (when I was a new driver) but that should be inactive now shouldn't it?

Any advice is massively appreciated!

Thanks

Burns863


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Wales

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:34:18 +0100
srg
> However, I did not see any camera van/mobile camera

Because they hide them in Horseboxes in North Wales
burns863
QUOTE (srg @ Mon, 11 May 2009 - 17:26) *
> However, I did not see any camera van/mobile camera

Because they hide them in Horseboxes in North Wales


I guess they're allowed to do this in N.Wales then? Or is this legal in England as well?
nemo
QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 11 May 2009 - 17:42) *
I guess they're allowed to do this in N.Wales then? Or is this legal in England as well?

There is nothing in statute which provides that speed enforcement must be visible or conspicuous; England, Scotland, Wales - all the same.
burns863
Thats cleared that up then smile.gif Any further advice with regards to my NIP?
jaytu
They also use a tatty old white van without any markings apart from a scruffy type chevron checkered thing around the bottom that you can hardly see. This is normally sited behind some bush or similar camouflage and gives you the impression that it is an abandoned vehicle. Often seen on the Portmeiron area of a Sunday to collect the tourist toll money for entering North Wales.

I hate the North Wales scammers. Nothing to do with safety whatsoever. mad.gif
srg
QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 11 May 2009 - 19:15) *
Thats cleared that up then smile.gif Any further advice with regards to my NIP?


Yes, if you ask for photographs, don't ask for "evidence" or they will clam up. Ask instead for information "to help identify the driver" (obviously before you return the S172 request naming the driver).

Bear in mind, though, that requesting photographs dosen't "stop the clock" - you still only have 28 days to return the form naming the driver.
burns863
OK, so I now have the photographic "evidence". But I have a few points I could do with some advice on. The photo doesn't help me identify the driver. Nor does it help me identify where the alleged offense was committed. I know that the image was not supplied to help identify location but I was hoping it would do, as I can't for the life of me figure out where this happened. The A499 is a long road! I had an idea but my idea doesn't match the image. Do I have any come back on this? Can the photograph be classed as evidence when there is nothing what so ever to show I was in a 30 zone? As the only 30 zone I went through on that day was a small village. There are buildings either side of the road, which certainly doesn't match the photo.

Secondly, I received my NIP dated 7th May 09. This should mean I have 28 days from said date (which would make it 4th June) to supply all the details requested on the NIP under S172 right? Well, the letter accompanying the photograph reads:

"It is requested that you discharge this information prior to 28/05/09 by completing and returning the Notice of Intended Prosecution. Failure to provide this information will result in the matter being heard before the Magistrates."

Where do I stand with all of this? I feel as though I should contest the allegation as I genuinely do not believe I was in a 30 zone after seeing the photo. My problem is I leave for a 3 week holiday in the States on 26th June 09. If I was to plead not guilty and a court date was scheduled for when I was away where would I stand? I also have no idea whether I will be receiving a fixed penalty or a summons. When I phoned they told me it would ne a fixed penalty but I am allegedly traveling more than 50% over the limit, does this matter?

Massively appreciate any help or advice you guys can give smile.gif

Thanks

burns863




nemo
QUOTE (burns863 @ Fri, 15 May 2009 - 17:14) *
The photo doesn't help me identify the driver.

Nor is it required to.

And its largely irrelevant anyway since you already claim to know who was driving at the time..

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 11 May 2009 - 10:34) *
Were you driving? - Yes


QUOTE (burns863 @ Fri, 15 May 2009 - 17:14) *
Nor does it help me identify where the alleged offense was committed.

<..snip..>

The A499 is a long road!

That's as maybe. But how long is the 30mph stretch through the village of Pwllheli ? If longer than a couple of miles, then there might exist an argument for vague locus. If the stretch is only a few hundred yards long, then probably not.

If you do it quickly, you could always write to the SCP and ask if they can clarify precisely where the speed enforcement was being carried out that day. They are under no obligation to provide the information at this stage, but if there's unlikely to be any harm in asking the question.

QUOTE (burns863 @ Fri, 15 May 2009 - 17:14) *
Can the photograph be classed as evidence when there is nothing what so ever to show I was in a 30 zone?

Yes.

QUOTE (burns863 @ Fri, 15 May 2009 - 17:14) *
Secondly, I received my NIP dated 7th May 09. This should mean I have 28 days from said date (which would make it 4th June) to supply all the details requested on the NIP under S172 right? Well, the letter accompanying the photograph reads:

"It is requested that you discharge this information prior to 28/05/09 by completing and returning the Notice of Intended Prosecution. Failure to provide this information will result in the matter being heard before the Magistrates."

Where do I stand with all of this?

Rule #1 - Scammers lie.

QUOTE (burns863 @ Fri, 15 May 2009 - 17:14) *
I also have no idea whether I will be receiving a fixed penalty or a summons. When I phoned they told me it would ne a fixed penalty but I am allegedly traveling more than 50% over the limit, does this matter?

Up to 49mph in a 30mph limit would ordinarily qualify to be dealt with by Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty - 3 points & £60 (if accepted).


burns863
Thanks for your reply Nemo smile.gif Yea the "who was driving" question was largely irrelevant. I meant it more as a "This photo appears to show nothing" statement. Anyways....

"Rule No.1 - Scammers Lie". So does this mean I should stick to the 'less than 28 day' date accompanying the photo, stick to the original date of 4th June (28 days from issue of NIP) or phone to ask?

Can you explain what you mean by "vague locus" ? The stretch through Pwllheli is definitely more than a few hundred yards long. Its between 1 and 2 miles long. Any advice on how I could proceed?
nemo
QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 21:42) *
"Rule No.1 - Scammers Lie". So does this mean I should stick to the 'less than 28 day' date accompanying the photo, stick to the original date of 4th June (28 days from issue of NIP) or phone to ask?

Irrespective what the scammers might say, the recipient of a s.172 request has 28 days from date of service (delivery) of the request within which to provide the information.

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 21:42) *
Can you explain what you mean by "vague locus" ?

Vague locus

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 21:42) *
The stretch through Pwllheli is definitely more than a few hundred yards long. Its between 1 and 2 miles long.

Probably insufficient for a vague locus defence to have a realistic chance of success, IMHO.
burns863
QUOTE (nemo @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 21:42) *
"Rule No.1 - Scammers Lie". So does this mean I should stick to the 'less than 28 day' date accompanying the photo, stick to the original date of 4th June (28 days from issue of NIP) or phone to ask?

Irrespective what the scammers might say, the recipient of a s.172 request has 28 days from date of service (delivery) of the request within which to provide the information.

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 21:42) *
Can you explain what you mean by "vague locus" ?

Vague locus

Amazing! Thanks smile.gif

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 21:42) *
The stretch through Pwllheli is definitely more than a few hundred yards long. Its between 1 and 2 miles long.

Probably insufficient for a vague locus defence to have a realistic chance of success, IMHO.


I have a couple of concerns with this though. Firstly, could this have a negative impact on the outcome of thebcase IF a vague locus approach was to fail? Secondly, as soon as I received the NIP I called the telephone number to aak the location of the alleged offense and mentioned obtaining the photograph for my own reference. I didn't actually say who was driving but I didn't say that I was unsure either. I'm not sure if this would have any effect on the whole situation.

It's frustrating as I genuinely don't believe the photo shows me inside the 30 zone sad.gif
nemo
QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 22:08) *
Firstly, could this have a negative impact on the outcome of the case IF a vague locus approach was to fail?

Er, yes. If a vague locus defence was the only weapon in your armoury and it failed, then you would be convicted and left facing more points, higher fine, costs, Victim Support Surcharge, etc etc..

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 22:08) *
I didn't actually say who was driving but I didn't say that I was unsure either.

Its not relevant - you know you were driving.

And if you do not provide the required information within the statutory 28 day response window then you would be liable to be summoned for failing to furnish driver details. This offence is entirely separate to the alleged speeding offence and carries 6 penalty points and a fine of several hundred pounds upon conviction.

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 22:08) *
It's frustrating as I genuinely don't believe the photo shows me inside the 30 zone sad.gif

Unfortunate perhaps, but it may be the case that the only way you would be in a position to confirm the precise position would be to nominate yourself as the driver, ignore any Conditional Offers of Fixed Penalty, await a summons and, once a plea of not guilty had been entered, start the fight for release of the video of the enforcement session. On its own, this is likely to be difficult, time consuming, costly and will come with no guarantees of success (either for release of the video, or for the benefit of your case).
burns863
QUOTE (nemo @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 22:29) *
QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 22:08) *
Firstly, could this have a negative impact on the outcome of the case IF a vague locus approach was to fail?

Er, yes. If a vague locus defence was the only weapon in your armoury and it failed, then you would be convicted and left facing more points, higher fine, costs, Victim Support Surcharge, etc etc..

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 22:08) *
I didn't actually say who was driving but I didn't say that I was unsure either.

Its not relevant - you know you were driving.

And if you do not provide the required information within the statutory 28 day response window then you would be liable to be summoned for failing to furnish driver details. This offence is entirely separate to the alleged speeding offence and carries 6 penalty points and a fine of several hundred pounds upon conviction.

QUOTE (burns863 @ Mon, 18 May 2009 - 22:08) *
It's frustrating as I genuinely don't believe the photo shows me inside the 30 zone sad.gif

Unfortunate perhaps, but it may be the case that the only way you would be in a position to confirm the precise position would be to nominate yourself as the driver, ignore any Conditional Offers of Fixed Penalty, await a summons and, once a plea of not guilty had been entered, start the fight for release of the video of the enforcement session. On its own, this is likely to be difficult, time consuming, costly and will come with no guarantees of success (either for release of the video, or for the benefit of your case).


You know what, your right smile.gif NIP will be being returned today. I'm not going to protest my innocence as its looking like it is going to cause me more of an inconvenience than anything and possibly increase my penalty. Hopefully, I will just be dealt with by a fixed penalty and all of this will be sorted!

Do you know if insurance companies will make any adjustments to the premium price immediately after any further convictions are declared or do they wait until your renewal date?
The Rookie
Retruning the form naming the driver is not admitting guilt, it merely confirms you were driving, you can still contest the alleged speeding offence if you wish.

Simon
nemo
QUOTE (burns863 @ Wed, 20 May 2009 - 09:39) *
Do you know if insurance companies will make any adjustments to the premium price immediately after any further convictions are declared or do they wait until your renewal date?

They might not make any 'adjustment' for a straightforward SP30.

And check the wording of your policy for confirmation as to when you are required to notify the insurer of a licence endorsement.
burns863
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 20 May 2009 - 14:03) *
Retruning the form naming the driver is not admitting guilt, it merely confirms you were driving, you can still contest the alleged speeding offence if you wish.

Simon


Thanks Simon, thats useful to know smile.gif It makes sense when you read the details asked as it only talks about the "alleged" offense and at no point asks you for a plea.

I have only just noticed my postcode is wrong by one letter (Last letter is a D on the NIP when it should be a P). I guess this is a small error that will have no effect on the case?
nemo
QUOTE (burns863 @ Thu, 21 May 2009 - 20:02) *
I have only just noticed my postcode is wrong by one letter (Last letter is a D on the NIP when it should be a P). I guess this is a small error that will have no effect on the case?

Correct.
burns863
OK. So I'm returning my NIP this morning as recorded delivery. I guess I will receive the fixed penalty through the post to which I then have to return my license for endorsement. However, I'm a little worried about the time it takes for this process to be completed as I am traveling to the US on 26th June and do have to take my license with me (both parts) to enable me to drive the rental car. That gives me 4 weeks 6 days from today to get my license endorsed and get it back. Is that likely? Do you think its worth putting a letter with my NIP to inform them of my travels and kindly request I have it sorted by that date?
burns863
Well, I needed to get it sent back so I made the decision to go with the letter. I literally just explained my position and requested their cooperation with a speedy turn around time smile.gif

Any advice on personal experience with turn around on license endorsement?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.