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chesterly
Hi all,
Wondering if yous could give me a few wise pointers.

I have just received a NIP today in the post, from my local Police saying that the driver of my car on a local road, earlier this week was guilty of an offence to which:

* Section 112 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984

I hereby give you notice that I have received a report to the effect that you: (MY NAME) did drive a certian vehicle and:

* did exceed the speed limit on a restricted road under the Road Traffic Regulation Act, 1984 and regulations made there under.

In consequence of such report, as aforesaid, I hereby give you notice pursuant to part 1, Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, that it is intended to prosecute you, the driver of the vehicle, in respect of all such offences, or some one, or more of them.

Then there is a box at the bottom asking for name and address of driver at the time, pretty standard NIP I guess??

I think i was possibly driving at the time, but do not recall speeding, or indeed even seeing any police or speed trap vehicles or devices, and i'm normally pretty good at spotting them! (Driving 12yr - clean licence)
There are no indications as to what speed I was allegedly travelling at in the letter.

Any suggestions?
Do i just confess it was me driving as the nip wizard suggests and see what happens next?
Charlie_05
Complete the NIP wizard (top right hand corner of any page), answer all questions as fully as poss. Then post on here. Only then can the wise ones help you, as they'll have all the info they need to start.
chesterly
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - REMOVED
Date of the offence: - REMOVED
Date of the NIP: - REMOVED
Date you received the NIP: - REMOVED
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - REMOVED
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - No events leading upto or after alleged offence, I didnt notice any police or speed trap vehicles, I was not stopped at the roadside by an officer. The day was clear, dry, light traffic, road is dual carriageway.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 08 May 2009 18:11:45 +0100
chesterly
It also states at the bottom of the letter that to comply with the law, the notice must be sent within 14 days of an accident.

It states ACCIDENT?
Or is this just the wording of such legal documents?
andy_foster
It is unusual for them to use s. 112 RTRA 1984 - which is generally used for parking tickets, rather than s. 172 RTA 1988.

Whilst the penalty for failing to comply with a requirement under s. 172 RTA 1988 is 6 points (or in theory a discretionary ban), and a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale (max £1000), failure to comply with a requirement made under s. 112 only carries a fine not exceeding level 3...

No idea what the Mags' guidelines say about the actual fine likely to be imposed.
chesterly
Hi thanks for the quick reply!
So in theory I can't receive a temporary ban or points because they have stated S.112 instead of S.172 ?

If this is correct I will certainly sleep better, as a temporary ban would result in my job loss.
I'd rather take a larger fine and no points/ban to be honest - my licence is everything to me (hence keeping it clean for 12yr)

I'm still confused as to how I was speeding, maybe i'm not used to the feel of the new car yet, no excuse, but I'm still a little baffled.
I even have a trained eye for spotting the un-marked partol cars. I drive that road many times a week, there are no fixed speed cameras and i've never seen a mobile/camera van on that road.
nemo
QUOTE (chesterly @ Fri, 8 May 2009 - 18:50) *
So in theory I can't receive a temporary ban or points because they have stated S.112 instead of S.172 ?

Schedule 2 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
andy_foster
There are 2 broadly separate issues - the substantive speeding allegation, and the requirement to provide information regarding the driver's identity.

To prosecute for the alleged speeding offence, they need to know who was driving (and for a conviction they need to be able to prove who was driving) - which is where s. 112/s. 172 come in. Failure to comply with requirements made under those sections constitute a separate offence (subject to statutory defences that would not seem to apply in this case), but effectively make a conviction for the speeding allegation impossible - so if you don't respond to the notice, you get done for not responding to the notice, rather than for speeding.

If the NIP specifies the alleged speed, you can ascertain the likely penalty for that offence by putting the relevant numbers into the gizmo below.

chesterly
ok, thanks for clearing that up.

It doesnt state a speed on the NIP.

I have put 99mph as speed i was doing (cant be anywhere near that - and no chance in hell its over 100mph)
and its came up with this:

Points: 4-6
Normal fine range: £150 - £250
Disqualification possible? Consider 7-28 days

sad.gif
TheCat
What an interesting predicament this presents. Ignore the form and be prosecuted for failing to reply with the punishment of a fine.

OR

Respond to the form and get a fine and points.

I think I know what I would do.
chesterly
is this not normally how things happen?
am i a special case? biggrin.gif
andy_foster
Normally the requirement is made under s. 172 RTA 1988 - which carries 6 points for failure to comply.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (chesterly @ Fri, 8 May 2009 - 19:40) *
is this not normally how things happen?
am i a special case? biggrin.gif

Not normally, no. Whilst systematic errors are rare, they are not unheard of. E.g. Norfolk's invalid S172 notices several years ago.
More likely that it was a couple of local BiB who zapped you, and they have used the wrong paperwork.
chesterly
oh!?

Erm, ok... thats good I guess.

What now - ignore? Write a letter saying i dont know who was driving at the time?

I have also been advised by to remove some info from the nip wizard and original post, as big brother are watching ohmy.gif
sorry if they now seem a little vauge
Starfighter
QUOTE (chesterly @ Fri, 8 May 2009 - 20:07) *
Write a letter saying i dont know who was driving at the time?

This would leave you open to prosecution for perverting the corse of justice as you have stated you are the only person to have driven the car, that opens the real possibility of jail time....

You have 28 days to respond to a s172 notice (not sure on a s112) so you could ask for pictures to assist you in identifying the driver. Don't use any words like "evidence" or "proof". This may give you more information to help you make a judgement such as location and speed etc.

Be advised that failing to respond will be followed up could well result in a knock on your door from the BiB and a summons for both speeding and failing to furnish. You can be conviced of both.
chesterly
So i'll just say I was driving and see what happens then, they've obviously got me either way
TheCat
Silence is golden. icon_wink.gif
chesterly
I like your style cat, but I really dont want police at my door though, or a warrant out for me ohmy.gif
Might have to go into hiding LOL

Just wondering - how fast would i generally have to be travelling before they went down this route of prosecution? 75mph? 80? 90?
TheCat
They can't issue a warrant, You haven't committed an arrestable offence.

The next step will probably be a reminder followed by a summons for failure to name the driver. This can be dealt with by post. Plead guilty and take the fine.
chesterly
I'm glad theres some people in the know! biggrin.gif
TheCat
Post back when you get the summons. Some areas are known to "Dual charge" that is they lay charges of speeding and failure to furnish. They are not supposed to and do it as a last ditch attempt to get you to cough for the speeding.

It is actually an abuse of process to do this but it doesn't stop them.

Forewarned is forearmed.
chesterly
So for now - do you suggest I simply 'do nothing'??

If i go down this route - will the outcome be a fine, at worst?
TheCat
What you do is your call.

Personally I would do nothing.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (Starfighter @ Fri, 8 May 2009 - 20:25) *
Be advised that failing to respond will be followed up could well result in a knock on your door from the BiB

Highly unusual in England & Wales. In any case, they would be tresspassers, if it was made clear to them that they were not welcome and asked to leave.

QUOTE (Starfighter @ Fri, 8 May 2009 - 20:25) *
and a summons for both speeding and failing to furnish. You can be conviced of both.

Only a small handful of constabularies dual charge.
In any case, how do you suggest that a conviction for speeding is possible without any evidence of the driver's identity?

QUOTE (chesterly @ Fri, 8 May 2009 - 21:23) *
If i go down this route - will the outcome be a fine, at worst?

That question hs already been answered.
chesterly
Thank you very much for all your input.

I shall let yous know if and when anything happens.

Many thanks again.
TheCat
Essentially it boils down to which is the lesser of two evils, fine or points.

If you reply then the likelihood is you will be offered £60 and 3 points.

Ignore and the likelihood is big(ish) fine but no points.

That's a call only you can decide on.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (TheCat @ Sat, 9 May 2009 - 22:42) *
If you reply then the likelihood is you will be offered £60 and 3 points.

You can't say that, as you don't know what speed is alleged.
neil3841
Well if you do decide to risk the s112 rather than risk the speeding I would not make any contact with them as you don't want them to notice it is s112 and not s172 because unless I am mistaken (and I admit I may be) they can still send you a s172. The less time your file is off the shelf the better

But fine and points

or fine no points seems to be the choice you have at the moment
chesterly
well i followed the suggestion of 'be quiet'

I have came home today and there is a recorded delivery letter waiting for me at the sortng office (i was at work when they tried to deliver)

I am not expecting anything recorded delivery - so I think it will have something to do with this.

Do i collect it or wait until i get a knock on the door from the BiB?

Thanks in advance
jobo
if it comes recorded it viewed as served if you get it or not so you might as well get it, chances are its a remminder.

but if your unlucky and its a 172 you want to know so you can act accordingly
andy_foster
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 19 May 2009 - 21:04) *
if it comes recorded it viewed as served if you get it or not so you might as well get it, chances are its a remminder.

but if your unlucky and its a 172 you want to know so you can act accordingly


Properly posting by recorded delivery creates an irrebuttable presumption of service of a notice for the purposes of s. 1 RTOA 1988. I am not aware of any similar provision for s. 172 RTA 1988.
jobo
Ok may be I'm confusing my self then, its irrefutable for nips but not for 172, what if its a combined nip and 172 as most are. the nip is clearly out of date, but the 172 is not

does that mean it refutable or not ?
andy_foster
Where does the irrebuttability provision come from? [S. 1 RTOA 1988]
What does that actually say?

A notice under the Landlord and Tenant Act 1927 is deemed to have been served at the time it is posted, regardless of whether or not it ever arrives, or is returned as undelivered. If I borrow some money from you, and send it to you with such a notice which is then for whatever reason returned to me, have I paid back the debt?
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (chesterly @ Tue, 19 May 2009 - 18:07) *
so I think it will have something to do with this.

We're only ten days on from your first post. How long did the notice give you to respond?
chesterly
thats the odd thing - the first notice has no timescale on it to respond by. i've scoured it - not a mention?

i'm off to collect the signed for item now - it may have nothing to do with this, but i'm not expecting anything.

I shall post back if its anything exciting biggrin.gif

Cheers.
Keeper
QUOTE (TheCat @ Fri, 8 May 2009 - 20:42) *
They can't issue a warrant, You haven't committed an arrestable offence.


With the advent of the Police Reform Act, ALL offences are arrestable subject to certain criteria, the usual one being to facilitate prompt and effective investigation.
mr2
I think the OP should be made aware that IF they have clear photos/video of the driver then they could try to dual charge after he has failed to identify the driver.

He should then send a specialist motoring solicitor to defend him, and make sure he's unable to attend court that day to avoid being identified.

I believe there was a thread on here recently when a chap used similar tactics and got 6 points and a fine for failing to furnish despite doing 120mph.
Hotel Oscar 87
The maximum fine at Level 3 is £1,000 and I suspect they'd model a penalty for the Sec. 112 failure to furnish on what they'd view as the "similar" Sec. 172. offence. Given the size of the fines being imposed for that offence the impression is that the fine level is at 125-175% of relevant weekly income (i.e. gross, minus tax and NI). Still no formal MCSG update available as far as I can see.
chesterly
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Wed, 20 May 2009 - 11:43) *
The maximum fine at Level 3 is £1,000 and I suspect they'd model a penalty for the Sec. 112 failure to furnish on what they'd view as the "similar" Sec. 172. offence. Given the size of the fines being imposed for that offence the impression is that the fine level is at 125-175% of relevant weekly income (i.e. gross, minus tax and NI). Still no formal MCSG update available as far as I can see.


Hi, I dont quite follow - is it being suggested that if i 'keep quiet' - i could be fined upto £1000, but more likely to be about £450 (175% of my weekly income)

Anyway, the signed for item was concert tickets, for a friend, that should not have came to my address - so worry over on that count, glad i collected it!!

I have been toying with the idea of responding to the NIP, by means of a letter asking for more information, maybe some photos or even video evidence if i've been followed by an undercover motorway car?
The reason I say this is because I have been talking to a family friend, they have seen what I have from the police, and suggest that as there is no speed mentioned, nor an offer to show photographic evidence or how I was supposedly caught (camera, speed gun etc), I have been probably spotted by a 'town car' who simply thought it 'looked' like i was going too fast, and reported me.
If they cant give me exact details of speed, or a positive photo ID - where would I stand?
The Rookie
There is no need for them to confirm what evidence of what speed, or what proof of vehcile ID they have at this stage.

Just to be clear (as I can't see it mentioned) is teh S112 request attached to any form of NIP, and does it definately alledge speeding?

Simon
chesterly
Unfortunatley i dont have it with me at the moment, but there was 2x A4 sheets.


1st is on letter headed paper, sent from the most local police station to where the alleged offence happened (not a ticket office or HQ) obviously addressed to me, then my car details, and time and date of alleged offence.
Says my vehicle was spotted on a road in breach of:
*Section 112 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984.
*Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

However, it has in brackets "(delete as appropriate)", and the S172 line has a bold line printed through it, thus deleted.

At the bottom of the same page it requests that I assist the police by naming the driver of the vehicle at the time.

On page two, there are a whole host of Road traffic offences, all with bold lines printed through (it again says delete as appropriate)
except for one of them in the list:

* did exceed the speed limit on a restricted road under the Road Traffic Regulation Act, 1984 and regulations made there under.

Underneath all the other 'crossed out' offences, it says:

In consequence of such report, as aforesaid, I hereby give you notice pursuant to part 1, Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, that it is intended to prosecute you, the driver of the vehicle, in respect of all such offences, or some one, or more of them.

Then some blurb saying this has been sent to me within 14 days of an accident to comply with regulations.
The accident bit also confused me - as I posted on the 4th reply on 1st page of this topic ??

There has definately been no accidents - that i am 100% sure of.
The Rookie
Hmm interesting, a car can't breach either S112 od S172, only a recipient of such a request can be.

As has been said looks like incompitant local BiB, not sure how you were caught, but as the request would appear to be under the wrong section, as has been said, any communication with them may well harm your chances, besides if they do summons you I suspect they will compound the mess up by summonsing you under S172 in which case your not guilty having been served no such request!

Simon
mr2
As has been established, it's your choice whether you want (most probably unless you were caught WELL above the limit) 3 points and a £60 fine, or no points but a potentially larger fine.

For the no points option do nothing for now, but as per my previous post be prepared to send a solicitor to court if need be.
chesterly
The thing is - i have no idea how fast I was supposedly going?

If i could find out, then i'd know how to continue...

if they say 75mph or something - i'd take the 3 points and small fine, as I really am getting worried over all of this now - but if it comes back and they say i was doing 110mph (i guess somewhat impossible in a 1995 1.9 Diesel peugeot with 180k miles on the clock, as it struggles on small inclines on motorways!) Then i'd have go down a different route, I cant afford a temporary ban - i'd lose my job.

Hummph biggrin.gif
mr2
You can always ask for any information they have that may help identify the driver, be it photos ,video or an officer's statement about the appearance of any alleged offender he/she may have seen. That should hopefully shed a bit more light about how you were 'caught' and what your alleged speed is. (Be aware they aren't obliged to provide this yet but will probably send a couple of photos if they have any.)

The only risk I can see with this is that you may alert them to issue a 172 correctly.

It's up to you how to play this one!
The Rookie
My suspicion is that due to the poor 'document control' this is not an organised scammer activity, but local BiB in which case there would likely be no photo's, communication with them in which case would be pointless.

If it were me, I would keep quiet, let them try and sort themselves out when the time comes, you don't want them to look at the paperwork as they still have time to issue a valid S172.

Simon
jeffreyarcher
Don't kick sleeping dogs.
Also, I am somewhat dubious that that wording even constitutes a valid S112 requirement. Whilst there is no prescribed form for a S112 requirement, case law (for S172) tells us several things.
IMO, since it was not mentioned that the request was being made under S112, or that failure to respond was an offence, they have not complied.
Further, the wording, "requests that I assist the police by naming the driver of the vehicle at the time," indicates that response is entirely voluntary.
There is a Scottish case that says, where a verbal S172 requirement is made in an innocuous general manner, and the victim declines to respond, he must be warned that failure to respond is an offence, and the question re-posed.
chesterly
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher @ Thu, 21 May 2009 - 03:09) *
Don't kick sleeping dogs.



understood cool.gif

many many thanks again.

as you's can probably tell, i'm a bit of a worrier rolleyes.gif
chesterly
Hi folks - got a summons throught the post recently to attend court in late July, saying i'm guilty of an offence of not giving the identity of the driver, contrary to S172 of the RTA 1988 and schedule 2 of the road traffic offenders act 1988.

theres is also a statement in the summons saying the officer that spotted me used VASCAR? on the car behind me and it was travelling at just under 100mph and he thinks we were racing??
Odd - definately no races here!

Any more input as to the next step on this would be greatly received.
thanks.
jobo
is it just that offence, no speeding as well ?
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