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tingling
Hi

I'm a student in Oxford and park my car in the free car park in Port Meadow (a public park). Over the Easter holidays, the council must have changed it and now they charge you for parking. When I came back (on Saturday the 18th of April) it was dark, and I didn't notice the signs. I left my car there and only checked on it today - I had 8 parking tickets for 100£ each (with 50% reduced penalty within 14 days)!! The first one is from Monday 20th April, so 14 days from then is this coming Monday (although since its a bank holiday the form says the time's extended til Tuesday). What can I do?? I'm a student and really can't afford to pay 400+£ in fines! There is a number to call on the back of the paper, but its for 'personal enquiries only', and it says that all appeals will be made in paper. Should I phone them? Will they freeze the reduced penalty period if i appeal? Do I have any grounds for appeal (eg the sign wasn't well lit??)

Any help would be really appreciated!

Thanks
Neil B
Ok, several things.

Firstly, the deadline for the first one is today.

We will need to see the PCNs (in full). If they are all identical and for same contravention then one will do.

Also pictures of the poorly lit sign?

Can you confirm that all of the PCNs are for different days?

--

With regard to an apparent recent change. You will need to check various aspects of the 'Off-street Parking Places Order for the car park. It may well be flawed.



peodude
Is it definitely a council ticket, with the council at the top of the PCN?

Those figures sound like it might be a PPC.
oliverp
Are you saying you had 8 parking tickets on your windscreen at once or did they come through the post?
oliverp
QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Sun, 3 May 2009 - 12:59) *


No sign of that car park on this list though:

http://www.oxford.gov.uk/transport/car-parking.cfm
Teufel
yep lets see the front and back of one of the tickts - remove personal details

photos of the area - suigns tkt machines etc alos would help
peodude
Walton Well Road car park (for Port Meadow) is discussed in this document, on introducing a penalty charge. Dated August 2007

http://www.oxford.gov.uk/files/meetingdocs/65837/Item10.pdf
tingling
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/8977/pt1.png

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/618/pt2.png

I'm not sure if I uploaded them properly... The fourteenth day from my first ticket is tomorrow at 4pm, but since its a bank holiday theyve extended the reduced penalty period till tuesday.

Thanks for your help!
glasgow_bhoy
This is very interesting. It, to me, is unclear about the appeals procedure. Further to this it wants driver details and operates under the RTA 1984. Does this not mean that it would have to be appealed via mags courts and therefore should make mention of this on the tickets?

Is the City Council operating as a PPC seeing as they have their own VAT registration number for the parking department?

Why does it say "notice to pay excess charge/ penalty charge? Can they not make their mind up about whether they are issuing excess charges or PCN's??

Seems very confusing to the average council ticket
clark_kent
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Sun, 3 May 2009 - 19:57) *
This is very interesting. It, to me, is unclear about the appeals procedure. Further to this it wants driver details and operates under the RTA 1984. Does this not mean that it would have to be appealed via mags courts and therefore should make mention of this on the tickets?

Is the City Council operating as a PPC seeing as they have their own VAT registration number for the parking department?

Why does it say "notice to pay excess charge/ penalty charge? Can they not make their mind up about whether they are issuing excess charges or PCN's??

Seems very confusing to the average council ticket



Because some tickets they issue are an excess charge and some are a penalty charge.
Teufel
RTRA 1984 gives no powers to impose penalties for off street car parks owned/managed by the council

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?...xtDocId=2223862

s35 (1)(b)(iii)

all it does is to authorise then to chrge for parking - normally the charges are something like

EITHER 50p per hr by pay and display (or whatever)
OR 50 quid excess charge per day

so if you dont P+D or overstay you have to pay the excess charge

there are no provision for penalties

to talk of an infringement is misleading - if you dont p+d you pay
the excess charge its quite simple

i think oxford have screwed up - wouldnt be the first time - when they went decrim a few years
ago the whole proces was unlawful

you need to do a bit of research and find the off street parking orders and see what they say
visit coucil offices to do so - or make a request but they may nto get back in time
tingling
Sorry, I'm being really stupid.. what do you mean off street parking orders? How would I go about looking them up?

Thanks
Glacier2
Go down to the council offices and ask to see them. Then make copies.
bluegolfboy
Is it just a sign or is there a pay and display machine?
Neil B
QUOTE (Teufel @ Sun, 3 May 2009 - 21:10) *
you need to do a bit of research and find the off street parking orders and see what they say
visit coucil offices to do so - or make a request but they may nto get back in time


Particularly as the heading ''for the time being in force'' is rather curious?? What does that mean?


-



Teufel
get some pics from the location - tkt machine signs etc

the order is a legal document which lays out the parking regulations - it may be online
or the ouncil may send you the relevent part

you can visit the council offic e and demand to see it - it is a public document
and they have to make it availibale without appointment

what it says about this car park wil be interetsing
Glacier2
These notices sound like the fake railway tickets. They vaguely mention the 1984 act in the small print. I think OCC are acting like a PPC.

QUOTE
Particularly as the heading ''for the time being in force'' is rather curious?? What does that mean?

It means we can make up the rules as we go along.
tingling
Again, I'm being really stupid... What am I looking for in these documents? Surely it's clear that they implemented this system, and I failed to display a ticket so got a fine?
Glacier2
But they have failed to show what law you have broken.

This sounds like the Tower Hamlets PPC scam again but without the towing.
Teufel
tingling - the council has to have a law backing up its actions and follow the proper procedures
laid out by those laws and regulations

i dont think they have and so you would not be liable

we are trying to help you from paying out a lot of money
tingling
But do they need to? Surely I just didn't pay for parking and that in itself is reason for a penalty? Also, what is a PPC?

Thanks for being so patient!
dave-o
PPC = Private Parking Company.

If it is, then you needn't worry about the tickets. Private companies are not able to issue fines or penalties.
bama
we need to know the wording - not paraphrased. leave out details which identify your vehicle etc.

A verbatim transcription of the first four or five printed lines in the tickets would be a good clue and quick to post up.
Glacier2

tingling
OK - but doesn't the fact that it is headed with 'Oxford City Council' mean that it's not a PPC?
Glacier2
Nope.

Tower Hamlets in London do the same and they operate as a PPC on their estates.

OCC do not state the statute under which the notice is issued.
tingling
OK one last time... I am to go to the council and ask to see what exactly? and what am I looking for in this document? (i'll make photocopies so you can see) I don't want to turn with no idea what I'm doing!
Glacier2
You are looking for a copy of OCC's off street parking places order for that car park.
bama
it is weird stuff for sure
"excess and/or penalty charges to the driver"
and quotes RTRA 1984 on the back.

Oxford City Council (Oxfordshire County Council) went DPE on 01 Feb 1997
according to minutes from parliament
Taken before the Transport Committee
on Wednesday 7 December 2005


TROs may be 'interesting'...
Glacier2
That is certainly not a DPE PCN.
bama
Exactly !

I don't know what it is or even how to classify it.

Glacier2
PPC invoice?
ManxRed
Does the fact that they've used the words 'penalty charge' and dressed it up not dissimilarly to a PCN make Oxford County Coucil potentially guilty of fraud?

Just wonderin'....
Glacier2
Quite possibly.
bama
and they quote the 1984 act on the back.
TRO needed I think.

As its got us all puzzled....


have a look at page 86 of the 2005 NPAS annual report for their appeal stats - it only adds to the puzzlement.

something looks to be very wrong.
tingling
What's a TRO - is that something I should ask for?
peodude
TRO - Traffic Regulation Order

https://www.csduk.com/CSD/Transportandstree...lationorder.htm
bama
Nice link but its not in English

Examples of TROs are:
Double/single yellow lines
Loading bays
One-way streets


Lord give me strength but that is pathetic.


TROs are public documents, any intersted person is entitled to a copy. FOI does not apply and don't use it when getting a TRO. use the search box in the top right hand corner of the screen - many hits.
Neil B
tingling. TRO being discussed is the on-street equivalent of OSPPO. It is the latter you want. You really need to phone to ask where to go rather than just turn up.

-----

@ team PeP. Yes OCC is decrim but many councils in towns and cities still take separate responsibility for off-street car parks don't they?

It does all look very iffy. Saw a funny one in Fareham, Hants where decrim but in one car park only they claimed to use RTRA 84 to impose some kind of 'after charge' - can't even remember the name of it but similar to Newcastle's FDNs.

-

bama
the link for off-street info on page
http://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/wps/portal/p...Parking+enquiry

craps out !

but there is this.

still trying to relate the location on the PCN?FPN?thingy? to the information.
tingling
Sorry guys I'm not following...

What do PCN, FPN and DPE mean,

So I'll go tomorrow and ask for a copy of the OCC's off street parking places order. If there isn't one, that means the tickets were given by a PPC, and they aren't entitled to make fines, is that right? But if there is, then it's the council and they are?

Thanks a lot for all your help!
peodude
---------------------------------------------------

PCN

Penalty Charge Notice

-----------------------------------------------------

FPN

Fixed Penalty Notice

------------------------------------------------------

DPE

Decriminalised Parking Enforcement

------------------------------------------------------

Do we have a glossary on this site anywhere? Maybe we should have, some people, myself included, assume a little too much that people know what the abbreviations mean.
bama
the ticket lists three - get them all !

its not 'ask' its 'get', don't be fobbed off.
tingling
Three what?? As you may have guessed I know nothing about this..! Can someone please tell me exactly what you'd do if you were me: what to get from the council, what to look for on them...

I have no idea what I'd do without this forum!

EDIT - oh wait do you mean

City of Oxford (off-street parking places) order for the time being in force

City of Oxford (Gloucester Green Bus Stationand loading area) order for the time being in force

City of Oxford (Park and Ride Parking places) order for the time being in force

but surely only the first is valid?
Neil B
QUOTE (tingling @ Tue, 5 May 2009 - 22:39) *
but surely only the first is valid?


how would we know? YOU live there! rolleyes.gif
bama
even if it is one yoy can't tell what is in the Orders until you see them. they quote all three as applicable on the PCN so I would get all three.
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