Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Is this Loading bay legal? with pics
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Guybrush
Hi, first post, great forum.

I've checked out the guide on parking bay lines, but I'm still a little unsure.

A brief explanation. I got a PCN after being in a loading bay. I'm a trader, was swapping incorrectly supplied parts, quick in and out (unfortunatly, was in the estate car). And bam! Ticket being put on the screen as i walk towards the car. CEO said he waited 5 mins but that there was no evidence of continuous activity. I was in there no more than 5 mins, and that was me waiting for the staff, no money to exchange, just checked my paperwork than swapped the parts. Oh and i had my hazards on. So i returned to car in 6th minute. Since, I have seen another ticket issued very quickly in this space by a doorway lurking warden, which i guess is how they got me.

Anyway, the loading bay seems to be missing the line seperating it from the cpz. Is this good enough grounds for appeal? Or am i mistaken about the regulations?




Many thanks
watsits
you are best off scanning the PCN (BOTH SIDES) and posting them up here as there may be things wrong that we can work on. In the mean time how big/heavy was the object you were exchanging, you were loading unloading, you took it from your car and returned something to your car. The continueous bit shouldn't realy come into it I don't think but better people than me will be along to explain things better


QUOTE
Oh and i had my hazards on
Why do motorist think that by putting Hazard lights on their cars become imune to PCNs laughing7.gif
markie
QUOTE (watsits @ Tue, 28 Apr 2009 - 20:30) *
QUOTE
Oh and i had my hazards on
Why do motorist think that by putting Hazard lights on their cars become imune to PCNs laughing7.gif


Switching on my hazards makes my car go invisible - but it is the top of the range model... laugh.gif

There may be mileage in the missing bay separator - which would make the bay non-compliant & misleading (where does the loading bay finish and the CPZ start?)

Also when you say paperwork - can you produce an invoice or delivery note or receipt with the sate and time on it?

Certainly scan the PCN - always a good starting point.
Guybrush
thanks for the replys. heres the pcn:





A technincality would be good, as I think i'm borderline for loading. The paperwork is from a few days earlier then the pcn, as the items were picked up by clients plumber. The merchants gave him the wrong parts (size) for underfloor heating, I was tilling the floor so had to go get the right stuff. I showed the receipt to them, they acknowleged the difference between what was written and what was supplied. I can try to get a letter from the merchants saying they swapped parts supplied in error. The CEO did write down the customer number from the receipt i had, and my name. Was this good or bad?
The box wasn't that big, but i was in the middle of job and time is money. I spent as little time as possible 'loading'. I had previously spent 5 mins just sitting in the middle of the road waiting for a space to park, but that caused an obstruction as busses had to overtake me, so i went into the loading bay to cause less disruption. I had my hazards on to try and show i was loading, not parking! wink.gif

cheers
Anorak
What do the signs to left of the loading sign say? I'm curious as I'm expecting them also to say loading only as I cannot see that the loading bay terminates to indicate that another restriction begins.

I would advise you to write a letter containing the merchants contact details and stating that they confirm you were parked for the purpose of loading and ask them to clearly sign it. If you can get them to write a letter themselves on headed paper then even better.

You need to obtain confirmation from the council that the CEO did log in their book that you returned and claimed to be loading. So request a copy of the log page.

If you have both pieces of evidence in your favour then I cannot imagine a sensible adjudicator can conclude anything other than that you were loading.

The authority only have the argument that they observed you fo 5 minutes but most traffic orders do not stipulate a time limit. Just because they observed you for 5 minutes does not make you guilty. As for the "continuous" argument, ask the authority to confirm specificly where in the traffic order it says that loading must be continuous and to provide a copy of it as evidence.
dave-o
Nothing immediately jumps out as wrong with the bay.

If you wish, print this out, take a tape measure and go down and compare all the measurements:

Bazil
The loading bay is non compliant because:
1. There is no way the loading bay is 2.7 metres wide. (minimum width)
2. There should be 3 small transverse line terminating the end of a loading bay, there are only 2
3. The council cannot use De Minimis as it is nor as prescribed

If you were loading/unloading then it is not your problem that nothing was happening for 5 minutes paperwork has to be carried out which is part of a delivery/pick up process, you will win any appeal on all the above points , the PCN although a printed mess appears valid although you could argue that the PCN is confusing.
Measure the bay width thats your best bet and get a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) for that location.
Barry
dave-o
Actually it appears Bazil is quite right, and it is actually this diagram that refers to loading bays:

Guybrush
Thanks guys. Here is a picture of the cpz sign. I have no idea why there is a bus lane sign (albeit turned away) as there is no bus lane, never was a bus lane, and its a dead end road! ??



I measuered the bay width when taking pics, but nothing else. It was near enough exact 2m.

Regarding the minimum width in diagram 1028.3, the image shows 2700mm, but the text says (in summery) "1800mm is minimum if road is not wide enough, if this is the case than the transverse lines are to be same as 1028.4". Have I paraphrased that correctly? If so it seems to say that the bay is ok.

How do i get a copy of the TRO and a copy of the logbook of the CEO? I assume I should get this before making any appeal?

Sorry to sound a dunce, thanks
dave-o
You ask the council for CEO notes.
You can view TROs at the council offices.
Bazil
Not strictly correct, the council can and should send their TRO's via email in PDF or word format, PCN's and NTO's are time dependent so speed is of the essence if one is going to put in informal representations against the issue and then later mount an appeal at NTO stage, also one may be visiting Carlisle and live in Kent so viewing at the Town Hall is totally unacceptable. I can usually get a PDF of a TRO from my council in less than 15 minutes.
QUOTE
Regarding the minimum width in diagram 1028.3, the image shows 2700mm, but the text says (in summery) "1800mm is minimum if road is not wide enough, if this is the case than the transverse lines are to be same as 1028.4". Have I paraphrased that correctly? If so it seems to say that the bay is ok.

This would be for a disabled bay only not a loading bay so the bay is not ok.
QUOTE
I have no idea why there is a bus lane sign (albeit turned away) as there is no bus lane, never was a bus lane, and its a dead end road!

Maybe the road at one time was not a dead end and the sign is their to warn you that when you turn left you could be entering or already in a bus lane, without side street sides you cannot be convicted of entering into a bus lane if you entered from a side st and no signs were present.

bama
Agreed, thats the way it should work.
the bother is that some councils send out what can only be called 'softcopy bundles of rubbish' and the general poster doesn't know what a real TRO looks like.

and how do you know that what they send in the pdf is a 'true copy'.

of course you have the advantage that when you ask they recognise the name.


I agree that when distance intervenes it makes it very impractical.
maybe it sbetter as ' go in person, if you can't then get a softcopy and post it up'. but some TROs are massive..

thorny problem whichever way you look at it.



Of course PATROL is collecting a softcopy repository of TROs...
Guybrush
Ok, after a telephone conversation, I have emailed them for a copy of the CEOs logbook and a copy of the TRO. The operator suggested I put in a request for these when making representation, I explained that I would like the evidence before making represention. She had to ask her supervisor what to do huh.gif

cheers guys, it feels good fighting back against the inept council biggrin.gif
Bazil
Whilst some councils are inept you will find that most councils are totally unhelpful and incompetent and like my council parking services in Bolton are corrupt.
Keep battling on as its better to have fought and lost than not to have fought at all, it is folk like yourself and lots of others on here who make councils and the government "Toe the Line".
bama
Indeed. make them work for it.

is there a TPT 'Enforcement Guide' like the PATAS one ? had a poke around but didn't find.
Bazil
I have not seen an enforcement guide from the TPT but that doesn't mean there isn't one, its probably tucked away on some page stating, view the honesty of the TPT and nobody looks because no one believes they are honest, on the other hand there probably isn't one because all councils in the PATROL area enforce just how they believe CPE should be enforced, every council have their own Draconian methods derived from the Government Draconian Manual printed in 1991 subtitled, How to keep the subjects down, OMG I really am becoming cynical, it must be my sarcastic side manifesting itself whenever I see those three letters TPT. crikey somebody tell me a joke quick...
Guybrush
On this page (from camden website) there is a pdf to view called "Parking Enfocement Protocol"

http://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/content/trans...nt-protocol-.en

This is what is said for loading:
Contravention Code 25
Parked in a loading place during restricted hours without loading
A loading place allows a vehicle to park in a designated area whilst the activity of loading or
unloading goods is being carried out. The activity should be continuous. In some places this
activity is restricted to a maximum permitted time of 20 minutes. The restrictions relevant to the
loading place are indicated on a nearby sign.
If no loading/unloading activity is observed, a PCN may be issued to a private vehicle after a
period of two minutes casual observation, and to a commercial vehicle after four minutes.
If the CEO observes that the vehicle is being used in connection with loading/unloading activity,
then casual observation of the vehicle will continue. A PCN may be issued in circumstances
where the vehicle remains parked after the maximum time permitted, or if the CEO has reason
to believe that the loading/unloading activity has ceased.
Exemptions to enforcement
1. To pick up or set down passengers for a maximum of two minutes. The driver should
remain with the vehicle. If upon further observation the CEO identifies that the vehicle
remains parked after the picking up/setting down activity has ceased, a PCN may be
issued.
2. Royal Mail vehicles delivering or collecting items of post, except when outside Post Office
buildings whereby 5 minutes observation will be permitted before the issue of a PCN.
Royal Mail vehicles that are parked outside Post Office buildings will almost invariably be
engaged in the carriage of mail under their universal postal licence and as such still attract
an exemption whereby there is no time limit.
3. Local Authority refuse vehicles collecting waste.
4. Vehicles considered to be parked for ambulance purposes, police purposes, or fire
brigade purposes.
5. Vehicles being used in connection with works on the carriageway that constitutes an
exemption under the New Road and Street Works Act (1991).

Sorry to be a noob, but is TPT the Traffic Penanlty Tribunal?
Neil B
QUOTE (Guybrush @ Fri, 1 May 2009 - 16:06) *
A loading place allows a vehicle to park in a designated area whilst the activity of loading or
unloading goods is being carried out. The activity should be continuous. In some places this
activity is restricted to a maximum permitted time of 20 minutes. The restrictions relevant to the
loading place are indicated on a nearby sign.
If no loading/unloading activity is observed, a PCN may be issued to a private vehicle after a
period of two minutes casual observation, and to a commercial vehicle after four minutes.


Phhhrrrrwwww! well, yeah, issue a PCN if you like - then cancel it when a truthful statement of loading given!


DfT Operational Guidance.

8.56 Loading or unloading must be continuous while the vehicle is parked in
restricted areas. It is therefore important to clarify to CEOs that loading or
unloading includes taking goods to where the recipient may reasonably
be taken to require them in the premises, waiting for them to be checked,
getting delivery or collection documents signed and returning to the vehicle.
Delivery staff are expected to secure their vehicle when they are not with it
and a vehicle can legitimately be locked during some of these stages. Once
the delivery process is complete, however, the driver must move the vehicle
even if it is within the maximum period allowed for loading or unloading.




bama
the famous 'continuous' that councils claim means someone at the vehicle all the time, tooing and froing.

Have just had a look around TPT and haven't yet found the equivalent document to
http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk...bruary_2009.doc

But did find the final NPAS report.
http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/s...o.php?fileID=49
on page
http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/s...categoryID=4126

I strongly suggest that you are not drinking or eating anything when reading it.
just the first few pages will have you coughing and choking in anger.

Guybrush
Success! biggrin.gif
I never got a reply to my request for a logbook or info on how to view the TRO, but I had to make representation. I wrote a long letter expalining why I was legitimatly loading, and why the bay was non compliant anyway. Today I had a reply:

"...The PCN was issued because the above vehicle was seen parked in a loading place without loading.

However, after further investigation of this case, I have decided to cancel the PCN. I am not satisfied that the signage in this location is of the required standard (set out in legislation), to alert motorists of restrictions in force and as such, makes this PCN unenforcable."

It ends saying this does not set a precedent for similar offences.(However, does this mean that all PCN's in this bay should be cancelled/refunded. I might go put a copy of this letter up by the bay)

I'm happy that they cancelled it, but it would have been nice to admit that I was loading. But then I guess that could be an admission that the 'continuous' loading thing is nonsense wacko.gif

Noob question, but when they say that the signage is not good enough, are they refering to the painted lines on the road? So it was the lack of a transverse line between cpz and loading? Or too narrow?

Thanks very much for your help!
You guys gave me the confidence to tell them where in their CEO to put the PCN!

cheers
dave-o
QUOTE (Guybrush @ Thu, 14 May 2009 - 08:54) *
I am not satisfied that the signage in this location is of the required standard (set out in legislation), to alert motorists of restrictions in force and as such, makes this PCN unenforcable."



That is surprisingly non-slippery for a council appeals officer! Normally they would say they are cancelling out of the kindness of their hearts, because they don't want to admit their markings are crap.
bama
write back and ask
1) When the signage will be corrected.

2) Have they stopped enforcing until it is corrected. And if not why not ?

include a photcopy of their 'admission' letter. send to parking dept and legal dept and head of the council. CC: to the MP for the area

smile.gif
Bazil
You must write to them and ask them to cease enforcement, give them 7 days only, tell them you will try to get a PCN on the bay after the 7th day and if one is issued then they wll have committed a criminal offence, actually you can make a citizens arrest on the CEO if he is about to issue a ticket but not after, a citizens arrest I believe can be carried out to stop a criminal offence being committed, it is criminal because you have informed them and they have agreed that it is unenforceable.

Make a FOI (Freedom Of Information) request say 6 months from now to establish haow many PCN's were issued after they should have stopped enforcement up to and including the day the bay was made enforceable in legislation, use this information to make an objection to their accounts for this year on the basis of unjust enrichment.
nottoobad
I believe that 'Citizens Arrest' or "Any Person Power of Arrest" can only be used 'if the person has comitted, or is about to commit an indictable offence'. Indictable means it would be tried before a Crown Court.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.