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Full Version: [NIP Wizard] First time speeding offence in 11 years of driving
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Laney6
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - March 2009
Date of the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 10 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A446 Lichfield Rd, opp Belfry
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I was doing 57mph in a 50 ph zone. It was at 8.40pm and on a dual carriageway so I thought the speed limit was 60mph and didn't see the speed / camera signs (it was dark). The camera flashed at me twice (front facing).

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:36:19 +0100
BULLIT
Hi All

My 28 days are up this Thursday. If ANYONE can give me any help or advice, it would be very much appreciatted. Am I resigned to accepting x3 points? Please put me out of misery, sooner rather than later!!!

Best Wishes

I am not a transexual, but updating my sister's account on her behalf, as she is too stressed about this episode!!!!
Hotel Oscar 87
BULLIT

You might want to start your own thread and commence by posting the details of your sister's NIP using the NIP Wizard rather than hijacking Laney6's thread or better still try to calm her down sufficiently for her to post her own.

Laney6

Warwickshire offer speed awareness courses but I have a feeling that they are only offered at lower speed limits. I'm not sure that you will be offered one but the speed alleged, in your case, falls within the ACPO threshold (limit + 10% + 6mph) for consideration for such courses. If a course is not offered then the alleged speed would put you in the conditional offer of fixed penalty i.e. £60 + 3 points.

This all assumes that you are able to identify the driver (there doesn't seem to be any doubt as to who its was) or not and return your response to the Sec. 172 request (the reply form on the back of the NIP) with the 28 days allowed.
CountryCousin
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Sat, 2 May 2009 - 17:52) *
Warwickshire offer speed awareness courses but I have a feeling that they are only offered at lower speed limits. I'm not sure that you will be offered one but the speed alleged, in your case, falls within the ACPO threshold (limit + 10% + 6mph) for consideration for such courses. If a course is not offered then the alleged speed would put you in the conditional offer of fixed penalty i.e. £60 + 3 points.


Hotel Oscar 87,

Although I hesitate to in any way appear to correct a long established forum member like yourself since the lowest speed that Warwickshire Police will issue an NIP for Speeding on an SCP run roadside camera like this one will be Speed Limit (50mph) + 10% (5mph) +2mph = 57mph, then if they run a speed awareness course then of course they will offer this lady a place on it (as she was travelling at the lowest possible speed at which they even issue an NIP - i.e. 57mph as slower than this and nothing would have happened) provided she has no other speeding convictions on her licence in the last three years.
CountryCousin
Unfortunately according to what is listed on the County Council website at http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corporate/pages.nsf/Links/BB53CC000D4D034F80256F4D005A7E57 it now seems Warwickshire Police only offer these Speed Awareness Course to those at and probably a few miles beyond 10% + 2mph over the limit for those transgressing the 30mph and 40mph speed limits in the County.

For some utterly perverse reason, if this web page is taken on face value, then Speed Awareness Courses are not offered as an alternative to a Fixed Penalty Offer of £60 + 3 points for those transgressing 20mph, 50mph, 60mph or 70mph limits by a smallish amount in the County of Warwickshire.

I cannot imagine why a Speed Awareness course would not be offered for exceeding 50mph, 60mph or 70mph limits by a small amount at or beyond 10% +2mph since exceeding the speed limit on a higher speed limit road normally causes less in the way of deaths or fatalities since 30mph is normally a limit set in areas where pedestrians are expected to often come in to confict with the traffic and this may also be true of 40mph. 50mph, 60mph and 70mph roads are normally out in the countryside or are modern purpose built dual carriageways with no pedestrian access (if that limit is in an urban area) where the consequences of an accident are usually much less serious (no direct metal to human contact) the majority of the time. It is surely well known that motorways have the lowest death rate per mile driven in the country.

Practically all other SCPs who offer a Speed Awareness course would offer it for exceeding the limit by a modest amount at all speeds (except possibly 20mph which usually has all sorts of political and anti motorist motivations behind its setting). I have no idea why Warickshire SCP would choose to be the exception that proves the rule here.

So the only other possibility left for your sister if no Speed Awareness Course is available is either to accept the Fixed Penalty (almost certain to be offered to her when she sends back the completed NIP if no Speed Awareness Course is offered) or to try and obtain a copy of the Traffic Regulation Order covering this stretch of road from the Highways authority (probably from Warwickshire County Council or otherwise a local Unitary Council if there is one covering this road) and see if all the signs (and especially the signs on the road by which she entered the 50mph limit) conform with the Traffic Regulation Order area entry and exit points shown on the map and also with the wording in the Traffic Regulation Order (basically 50mph sign on each side of the road at each entry point to the zone and also street lit at night if the signs are within 100m of a council run street light). If the signs are defective she would have to go to court to prove it and might require the help of a traffic sign expert for the court to accept it.

From the sound of it she may not be too keen on that and so may regard it as easier to take the Fixed Penalty. Although if no Speed Awareness Course is offered it would certainly be worth a letter to the Chief Constable to ask why those exceeding 50mph, 60mph and 70mph limits by smaller amounts don't get the same deal as those exceeding 30mph and 40mph by small amounts.
nemo
CC,

HO87 was actually suggesting that Warwickshire SCP might not offer SACs in speed limit zones of 50mph and above (ie lower speed limits, rather than lower speeds - it appears that he may well be correct.

And 'previous speeding convictions on a licence within the past three years' do not automatically preclude an invitation to attend a SAC.

QUOTE (CountryCousin @ Sat, 2 May 2009 - 18:49) *
Practically all other SCPs who offer a Speed Awareness course would offer it for exceeding the limit by a modest amount at all speeds..

Do they ?
CountryCousin
QUOTE (nemo @ Sat, 2 May 2009 - 18:52) *
HO87 was actually suggesting that Warwickshire SCP might not offer SACs in speed limit zones of 50mph and above (ie lower speed limits, rather than lower speeds - it appears that he may well be correct.


Yes I had also done some more research and posted to that effect three minutes before your post. I still think that it would be worth a letter or email to the Warwickshire Chief Constable (presumably an email would find him at keith.bristow@warwickshire.pnn.police.uk) or the Chief Executive of Warwickshire County Council, who seem to run the whole Camera Partnership (unusually the Warwickshire Camera Partnership does not seem to have its own separate trendily named separate camera partnership website URL covered in the usual highly emotive pictures of bruised and bloodstained children) who is jim.graham@warwickshire.gov.uk. and the Leader of Warickshire County Council - Cllr Alan Farnell via cllrfarnell@warwickshire.gov.uk and the Chairman of Warwickshire Police Authority - Ian Francis at policeauthority@warwickshire.gov.uk pointing out that it seems unfair that no Speed Awareness Course is being offered to those transgressing 50mph, 60mph and 70mph limits by smallish amounts beyond 10% + 2mph.

QUOTE
And 'previous speeding convictions on a licence within the past three years' do not automatically preclude an invitation to attend a SAC.


Again it depends on the scheme in each Police area I suppose. However ACPO's proposed National Speed Awareness Course scheme document (http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/national_speed_awareness_course_guidance_01x02x06.pdf) suggests no speed awareness scheme to be offered to anyone who has been offered attendance on another speed awareness scheme in the last three years. But you are right the number or recency of speeding convictions on the license is not the defining factor so my mistake.

QUOTE (CountryCousin @ Sat, 2 May 2009 - 18:49) *


Thanks for that very useful link as I had no idea that information was on pepipoo. I think all this really shows is that the variation in the current criteria between different police forces is unreasonable and irrational and that it is also unfair that Surrey Police and various other police forces do not offer a speed awareness course at all to those exceeding the limit by 10% + 2mph + up to a small number of further mph in their Police areas.
CountryCousin
This web page further confirms the bad news that the Speed Awareness Course is not currently offered for 50mph minor transgressions in Warwickshire:-

http://www.warwickshire.gov.uk/Web/corpora...0257398003E6352

If I was you I would still want to write to all the people mentioned above and ask why those driving just above the limit in areas in conflict with pedestrians get preferential and more favourable treatment over those driving on roads where conflict with pedestrians is not normally an issue and where fatalities per mile driven will therefore be lower.
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