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dennyl
Hi Guys

I have just registered with the forum having done a search and found you guys (thank the lord )
I own a small company with a couple of cars all registered in the company name ,we recently received a nip and it asked who the driver was as he was caught on camera speeding ,we then wrote back asking them for the photographs so we could identify the driver.. This only showed two pictures taken from the rear.We have a log of who takes out what car on what days, times etc so we were able to provide the name of the driver,who is based in Egypt , We provided the name and adress of the driver and sent this off. We have now received a letter telling us that Under Section 143 (2) of the road traffic act 1988 it is an offence for a person to cause or permit any other person to use am otor vehicle without insurance. and they request that i forward evidence that the person named as driving the vehicle was insured to do so , if i don,t they will consider prosecuting me.?? The driver only showed me his insurance which was fully comprehensive for any vehicle and i,m not sure if i can contact him for a copy.. Am i supposed to copy his insurance or is it enough to just see it.

Many thanks

Dennyl mellow.gif
Glacier2
Standard MO for the police where a foreign driver is named.
southpaw82
Unfortunately if they charge you (or rather, the company) it's up to you to prove insurance was in force.
dennyl
Surely they have no right to ask me to copy insurance documents and send to them ? So i have to proove to them that the guy was insured ,? Isn,t the onus on them to proove he wasn,t ?
Fredd
Afraid not.
retroman
Insurance is one of those rare offences where the burden shifts to the defendent to prove they have it.

Also they may consider s.171 RTA 1988.

Other duties to give information or documents

171 Duty of owner of motor vehicle to give information for verifying compliance with requirement of compulsory insurance or security (1) For the purpose of determining whether a motor vehicle was or was not being driven in contravention of section 143 of this Act on any occasion when the driver was required under section 165(1) or 170 of this Act to produce such a certificate of insurance or security, or other evidence, as is mentioned in section 165(2)(a) of this Act, the owner of the vehicle must give such information as he may be required, by or on behalf of a chief officer of police, to give.
(2) A person who fails to comply with the requirement of subsection (1) above is guilty of an offence.
(3) In this section “owner”, in relation to a vehicle which is the subject of a hiring agreement, includes each party to the agreement.
Hotel Oscar 87
What was his relationship with the car? Was he in your employ for the period and might he be covered under your company policy? Or was it just a "loan"?
southpaw82
Has a requirement been made to the driver under s. 165(1) or s. 170?
jobo
i though that if an owner makes it a condition of the loan that insurance was in place, then the burden of proof shift back again
southpaw82
It makes it TWOC.
retroman
The normal procedure is to write to the driver abroad under s. 165
As said the guy doesnt think he can contact the driver, so neither will the police get a reply, strange how many non existant addresses are given!
The pre condition can be a defence to permitting no insurance but not the 171 offence, which at least is non endorsable.
If checks can be done on the address abroad, as is becomming more common now, a number of forces are having sucess with this offence:

s.5 Perjury Act 1911

False statutory declarations and other false statements without oathIf any person knowingly and wilfully makes (otherwise than on oath) a statement false in a material particular, and the statement is made—
(a)in a statutory declaration; or
(b)in an abstract, account, balance sheet, book, certificate, declaration, entry, estimate, inventory, notice, report, return, or other document which he is authorised or required to make, attest, or verify, by any public general Act of Parliament for the time being in force; or
©in any oral declaration or oral answer which he is required to make by, under, or in pursuance of any public general Act of Parliament for the time being in force,
he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and shall be liable on conviction thereof on indictment to imprisonment, . . . F1, for any term not exceeding two years, or to a fine or to both such imprisonment and fine.
Annotations:
Amendments (Textual)
F1Words omitted by virtue of Criminal Justice Act 1948 (c. 58), s. 1(2)
Sangamoura
QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 15 Apr 2009 - 17:45) *
i though that if an owner makes it a condition of the loan that insurance was in place, then the burden of proof shift back again
If you loan a car to a third party the onus is still on you to ascertain that he/she has insurance and the only 100% positive way to do that is sight his/her insurance documents. Verbal assurances or loan conditions you may impose count for nought.

In broad terms anyone who is not UK resident is unlikely to have valid insurance for your car. Many countries have a system whereby the car itself is insured and anybody can drive it with the insured's permission, France (where I live) and Germany are two I know of personally however in both cases the policies apply in country which means in my case I am not covered to drive say my sons or daughters cars when visiting UK, maybe your Egyptian friend has a similar policy and thought it did cover him. None of which helps you very much I'm afraid though.

I don't see how it makes it TWOC BTW as you gave consent huh.gif

2020Hindsight
QUOTE (Sangamoura @ Wed, 15 Apr 2009 - 22:11) *
I don't see how it makes it TWOC BTW as you gave consent huh.gif


If you told him he could drive your vehicle if he was insured, and he wasn't but drove it anyway, then he was doing it without your permission, so it'd be TWOC
nemo
Newbury v Davis [1974] provides that the owner of a vehicle who agrees to lend it to someone else on the express condition that the person is insured against third party risks commits no offence if that person then uses the vehicle without insurance.

In other words, permission given subject to a condition which is unfulfilled is no permission at all.
dennyl
Ok all thankyou for all of your input , i will be replying on the basis that he was given permission to drive the vehicle if he was providing his own Insurance.Hopefully this will be enough.

Many thanks
Pete D
Did the guy work for your company and what made you think that a comp policy, I assume held in Egypt, would be valid in the UK. What cover is provided by your company policy. Pete D
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (dennyl @ Wed, 15 Apr 2009 - 13:50) *
The driver only showed me his insurance which was fully comprehensive for any vehicle

Depends what was actually said, however, on the face of it, that doesn't look like a 'conditional permission' to me.

If a conditional permission was not given, then doing this;
QUOTE (dennyl @ Thu, 16 Apr 2009 - 14:46) *
i will be replying on the basis that he was given permission to drive the vehicle if he was providing his own Insurance.

would ne a bad idea ™.
See the reference to S5 (b) of the Perjury Act 1911, posted by retroman, above.
dennyl
QUOTE (Pete D @ Thu, 16 Apr 2009 - 15:33) *
Did the guy work for your company and what made you think that a comp policy, I assume held in Egypt, would be valid in the UK. What cover is provided by your company policy. Pete D



Hi Pete
The guy doesn,t work for us so isn,t on the company policy,which is why i have said he could borrow the car but only with his own Insurance to cover the car (which was for any vehicle fully comp issued in the UK) but didn,t take a copy but was 100% insured.
Pete D
He had a full UK comp any car policy yet be is based in Egypt. Do you not know what he does or who he works for, his name even. Can you recall the name of the insurer. Pete D
dennyl
Hi Pete
Yes he had fully comp uk insurance ,He works for himself and has a small Egytian investment company which aparently buys property throughout the UK and elsewhere.I have given the police his name and adress

Don,t know where i stand with all this ? We have done nothing wrong as far as i know ? what else can i say ?
If i say the above will i be charged ?
Pete D
Sounds good to me. I hope he replies to the police. Pete D
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (Pete D @ Thu, 16 Apr 2009 - 16:49) *
I hope he replies to the police.

He hasn't been asked to, as far as we know. rolleyes.gif
Pete D
Well the OP gave the Police his name and contact details so they will probably write to him. Pete D
Sangamoura
QUOTE (2020Hindsight @ Wed, 15 Apr 2009 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (Sangamoura @ Wed, 15 Apr 2009 - 22:11) *
I don't see how it makes it TWOC BTW as you gave consent huh.gif


If you told him he could drive your vehicle if he was insured, and he wasn't but drove it anyway, then he was doing it without your permission, so it'd be TWOC
Tell that to my wife who loaned her car to our son to get him out of a jam when his broke down. He assured her his own insurance covered him but turned out it didn't. Result 6 points and a £200 fine for her.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (Sangamoura @ Sun, 19 Apr 2009 - 19:41) *
QUOTE (2020Hindsight @ Wed, 15 Apr 2009 - 22:14) *
QUOTE (Sangamoura @ Wed, 15 Apr 2009 - 22:11) *
I don't see how it makes it TWOC BTW as you gave consent huh.gif


If you told him he could drive your vehicle if he was insured, and he wasn't but drove it anyway, then he was doing it without your permission, so it'd be TWOC
Tell that to my wife who loaned her car to our son to get him out of a jam when his broke down. He assured her his own insurance covered him but turned out it didn't. Result 6 points and a £200 fine for her.

There's nothing in there to indicate that the permission granted was subject to any conditions. If she granted unconditional permission on the basis of a a false statement by her son, that's her tough cheese.
Zed Victor One
Amazing how people can be so generous towards these foreign nationals who then going speeding round our roads rolleyes.gif
Why would Anwa Sadat have a fully comprehensive insurance policy issued in the UK if he does not live her or have a car here in the UK, which presumably if was borrowing your company car he doesn't? huh.gif
May I respectfully suggest that one stops digging before the hole gets too deep?
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