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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
jones325i
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - March 2009
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A5025, Dulas, Amlwch, Anglesey
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - descending a hill, coasting at 50mph. Entered the 40 mph limit but did not brake. Saw the van, braked but it was obviously too late.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Wales

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:05:49 +0000
jones325i
Further information: I recieved a caution for Driving without due care in May 2006 when it was decided that I failed to give way on a roundabout, leading to a collision. I've never had any points in 11 years of driving. Will the caution have any bearing on how the above offence is dealt with?

How likely am I to get a COFP?

Thanks in advance,

Mark
Glacier2
It will have no bearing whatsoever in the speeding case. You will be offered a COFP when you send back the NIP.
jones325i
Good to know, thanks.
The Rookie
It may be worth writing and asking for photo's to 'help confirm the drivers ID' some scammers have been found to be a bit ' quick on the trigger' pinging cars outside a new lower limit but claiming it was exceeding the lower limit it wasn't yet in!

Simon
jones325i
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 25 Mar 2009 - 09:13) *
It may be worth writing and asking for photo's to 'help confirm the drivers ID' some scammers have been found to be a bit ' quick on the trigger' pinging cars outside a new lower limit but claiming it was exceeding the lower limit it wasn't yet in!

Simon


Good idea, I wouldn't have been very far into the 40 limit, if at all. It's a bit of strange speed trap. The road descends into a dip, and there a some bends. The van was parked up a side road on the far side of the dip, which is roughly perpendicular to the road I was caught on:



I'm certain I braked before the left hand bend, hence I've labelled the measurement point as being before the bend. The bottom of the dip is at the apex of the right hand bend further along the road. The road then ascends sharply before levelling off at the junction with the side road.

Does the camera's line of sight need to be penpendicular to the vehilce's direction of travel to take a reading? I don't see how the speed reading can be accurate unless the vehilce is travelling directly towards the camera. Although, if it's not perpendicular, the speed reading will actually be lower than the true speed, which of course goes in the driver's favour. Also, the road isn't flat (it a steep hill that starts way before the top of the picture) so that would affect the speed reading too (again, it would assist in making the measured speed lower than the true speed I in my opinion.)

Is there a standard letter floating about for requesting images?

Thanks.
The Rookie
The offset of the laset from the straightline at the moment the reading is taken musn't be more than 10% of the range, get the picture and lets see what it shows!

Simon
jones325i
Here's the image:

jones325i
Going by the range reading on the above image (424m) I think that puts the measurement point as being roughly at the end of the red line I've drawn i.e. even further back up the hill than I thought:



I can't tell whether this is within the 40 mph zone (it probably is), but I'm trying to find out.

Any comments on the evidential photo would be appreciated too. The offset seems large to me. From the Rookie's comment (and given I now know the range to be 424.4m), I assume the offset needs to be less than 42.4 m for the reading to be valid?

I don't think my positioning of the van is accurate enough to draw any conclusions, but I think the actual offset could easily be over 50m.
The Rookie
I would add that its not uncommon for signs to not be placed at the start of the limit as specified by the Traffic Regulation Order, so its worth asking the local county council for a copy to see where the legal limit actually starts, both TRO and signage have to be in place for the limit to be enforceable.

Laser offset from straight track looks right on or over the 10% as well.

Simon
jones325i
There are signs signifying the start of the 40 limit, but unfortunately I'm not local to the this area. I have family there though so am waiting for them to have a look.


To All: Are the van positions generally consistent from set up to set up? Or do they just pull up somewhere near the agreed spot and start pinging? I guess what I'm asking is: Are the van locations published, and if so, how specific are the positions (do they just specify a road, or is it done by GPS to say the nearest metre?)

Thanks,

Mark
The Rookie
QUOTE (jones325i @ Thu, 2 Apr 2009 - 12:03) *
There are signs signifying the start of the 40 limit, but unfortunately I'm not local to the this area. I have family there though so am waiting for them to have a look.


To All: Are the van positions generally consistent from set up to set up? Or do they just pull up somewhere near the agreed spot and start pinging? I guess what I'm asking is: Are the van locations published, and if so, how specific are the positions (do they just specify a road, or is it done by GPS to say the nearest metre?)


As I said, you need signs AND a TRO, get them to check that, also helpful to know if the area is under street lights or not.

They usually park in 'about' the same place, but on a bridge near me they can move by upto 15m left and right.

If you know the width of your car and the wheelbase, some O-level trig' will enable you to work out the 'angle of attack' of the laser from the photo!

Simon
jones325i
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 2 Apr 2009 - 14:02) *
As I said, you need signs AND a TRO, get them to check that, also helpful to know if the area is under street lights or not.


I've emailed the council asking for the TRO for the 40 limit on the A5025, Dulas.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 2 Apr 2009 - 14:02) *
If you know the width of your car and the wheelbase, some O-level trig' will enable you to work out the 'angle of attack' of the laser from the photo!


I had exactly the same thought earlier today. I'm a bit of a car-bore so of course I have the specs on hand:

Width: 1698mm (not sure if this includes mirrors)
Wheelbase: 2700mm

I was thinking of using the width of the numberplate (520mm) to work out the scale of the image, rather than the vehicle width. Thing is, the camera is looking down on the car and I'm not sure how that would affect the calc...?



Simon
The Rookie
Looking down shouldn't be too much of an issue, I would go with siomething wide you can measure like between the outboard edges of the headlamps.

Simon
jones325i
Rookie,

I've had a stab, and got an answer of 14%. If appropriate, please PM me your email address and I'll forward the calculation on to you. I'd be interested to know what you think.

Oh also, do you have a reference I can read for the 10% offset rule?

I take your point about using a wider measurement to scale from - I'll have another go at some point to check the answer.
jones325i
I've sent my NIP back today in order to meet the deadline.

Still trying to get hold of a source for the 10% offset guidlines...?
jones325i
Hi, just for completeness, here is what happened with this one:

I was offered a Speed Awareness Course which I attended last Friday. The 3 hour journey to Flintshire was inconvenient and the course was poor, but all in all better than 3 points.

I carried out some calcs based on the photo which indicated that there problems with the siting of the van, but decided to take the low risk option and do the course.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm now a regular reader on here.
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