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clynderboy
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - March 2009
Date of the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Crubenmore A9
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Temporary use of pool car
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Travelling north on A9 from Perth to Aviemore, early afternoon. Weather bright and dry. Road quiet. Southbound lorry flashed lights and gave 'thumbs down' sign, recognised as warning of mobile camera van. On approach to camera van (in 60mph limit) speedo was checked and indicated approx 65mph. Six days later, I receive a NIP stating I was travelling at 81mph! If this were the case, my speedo would have been indicating approx 85mph, which I KNOW was not the case.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - Scotland

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    Depending on your circumstances, you may wish to consider completing the form, but returning it unsigned. By doing so there is a risk that you will be convicted under s172, which would attract 6 penalty points and a fine; in most cases this is likely to exceed the penalty for the speeding offence itself.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 22:37:11 +0000
clynderboy
Hello guys and gals!

I've looked hard through this site for a similar situation to mine here in Scotland but no luck yet. I realise this is probably covering old ground but I'm new here....please help!

Taking advice from others here and the NIP Wizard, I returned my NIP completed (licence no. etc) but unsigned and left it as late as possible before sending Recorded Delivery. By return of post, I received the usual 'offer' of £60 fine and 3 points and no mention of the unsigned NIP!

Any ideas as to what's going on here?! Any advice welcomed! smile.gif
andy_foster
QUOTE (clynderboy @ Sat, 18 Apr 2009 - 00:13) *
I've looked hard through this site for a similar situation to mine here in Scotland but no luck yet.


And you did not consider that your original thread for this incident (now merged) was a similar sitaution?

You've started a duplicate thread!
clynderboy
OK Andy....it's a fair cop...I did a BAD thing! I'm really sorry but I couldn't find how to continue with my original thread. I guess you can't help me with my 'situation' now that I'm in the doghouse!
southpaw82
If you ignore the offer they'll have to institute proceedings against you or drop it. If they institute proceedings then they have to prove who the driver was. The usual way of doing this is by providing a signed s. 172 form. It is possible that they could try to ID you in court but there are several objections to such a procedure.
clynderboy
Thanks southpaw82.
I was worried that their 'offer' had been sent to me before they received my unsigned NIP and that another letter would arrive enclosing that for signing. I think that's unlikely now as 3 days have passed and I've heard nothing more. I suppose too, that they would NOT have sent out the 'offer' without first receiving the returned NIP. Am I correct thinking this? Is it even possible that the clerk didn't NOTICE the NIP was unsigned?

You also mention 'several objections to such a procedure' (ID) in court...can you elaborate a wee bit on this?! Thanks.
southpaw82
I doubt they'd send out a COFP without having your s. 172 back. They probably did notice it was unsigned but are probably hoping you'll just accept the COFP.

Trying to ID someone in court is frowned upon as the mere fact that you're in the dock implies guilt and will make it more likely for someone to say "yes, that's him!" (because if you're in the dock you must be guilty, right?). However, courts are willing to accept dock identifications in motoring cases, usually from a "live" witness, such as a police office rwho observed the offence. Having a sufficiently good photo from which to ID you is a different matter.
clynderboy
Many thanks...I'm beginning (at last!) to see where this is going and I appreciate the help. One last question (for now!).... if I go to court (I have never had the pleasure previously) won't I be asked my name etc? Do I just refuse to answer? Maybe I'm being very naive here! I'll report back here when I have any more news. smile.gif
Black Rat
QUOTE (clynderboy @ Sat, 18 Apr 2009 - 17:44) *
if I go to court (I have never had the pleasure previously) won't I be asked my name etc? Do I just refuse to answer?



If thats how you intend to conduct yourself I'd pay up now. tongue.gif
southpaw82
QUOTE (clynderboy @ Sat, 18 Apr 2009 - 17:44) *
Many thanks...I'm beginning (at last!) to see where this is going and I appreciate the help. One last question (for now!).... if I go to court (I have never had the pleasure previously) won't I be asked my name etc? Do I just refuse to answer? Maybe I'm being very naive here! I'll report back here when I have any more news. smile.gif


If you don't give your name then I'd imagine some very nasty times ahead for you. You do not, however, have to enter the witness box to give evidence. You simply have to put the prosecution to proof to prove all elements of the offence, including the ID of the driver. You then don't go in the box. Let them prove it.
Lexus_Ian
Northern seems to be a lottery. I sent my NIP back unsigned and same thing happened went straight to COFP, work colleague went unsigned and got letter pointing out error of his ways....
Sounds like it depends on who is opening the mail on how they re-act..

Good luck anyway worked for me...
clynderboy
Thank you both (southpaw82 and Lexus_Ian) for your advice. As I said yesterday, I'll update when I can. Cheers guys. notworthy.gif
On the square...
Make sure you are not in for the next 6 months. Make sure your other half knows you are not in for the next 6 months

Dont get caught popping out to empty your bins at 7am to find the BIB standing holding the wheelie open for you remarking "let us help you with that, and by the way, good to see you up and about so early, can we have a chat"

This happened to me

Good luck

OTS
glasgow_bhoy
If u stay in clynder (im guessing from your name tongue.gif) then I doubt the cops will try hard to get you... its too outa the way to be worth doin n theres other stuff happnin round this area for strathclyde to be bothered doin northerns dirty work IMO
clynderboy
Cheers OTS...I'll try to 'out' as much as possible!! wink.gif

No, Glasgow Bhoy, I don't live in Clynder now but I grew up there, so you're not far wrong!! However, I do live outside of Northern's area, so maybe they won't give me too much grief. I'm sure they could ask my local BiB to call round though, so I'll need to be aware of that.

Thanks guys.
Fight it
I got pinged maybe 2 years ago on the A9 North bound just outside Inverness, I do not live in the Northern CONS area so I return the NIP unsigned then they kindly offered me a cofp wink.gif , Which I didnt reply to then I got another NIP, throught that was nice off them rolleyes.gif , then sent it back unsigned then, never heard anything again biggrin.gif.
Maybe because I lived outwith the Northern CONS area they couldnt be bothered or wasnt worth there time chasing me, I was apparently doing 20mph+ over the limit also.

All the best dry.gif
clynderboy
Thanks 'Fight it'....it sounds like your situation was very similar to mine. unsure.gif I hope, like yours, they decide not to pursue this but all I can do now is hurry up and wait! dontknow.gif

Cheers.
clynderboy
Hello again guys and gals! smile.gif

Here is the news... today I received a citation to attend Inverness Justice of the Peace Court next month. As I am adamant that I am innocent of the charges, I will attend the court to plead 'Not Guilty'. However, I note that several of the statements on the Summary of Evidence (Locus Description) are incorrect. Does this put me in a good position when my case is heard? I'm not about to rush to tell them where they've made mistakes....do you agree with my thinking?!

The Summary of Evidence also states that I returned the Section 172 form signed and dated but I did NOT sign it.

Lastly...should I...CAN I ask for the full session video of the alledged offence?

Cheers all.
jeffreyarcher
Forget the errors on the summary evidence witness statements. These are, in most cases, worthless bits of paper. They are not like S9 witness statements in England.
The officers will just 'correct' their 'errors' in the witness box.

There's no point in going along just to plead 'Not Guilty', it'd be a waste of time. Just plead 'Not Guilty' by letter. In the instant case, you've probably got more reason not to go along.
Whilst dock ID is still commonplace in Scotland, a lawyer should be able to work round that.
I suggest that you contact Michael Lyon for a chat.
Beware, though, that in Scotland, no costs are awarded either way.
You may want to read this thread.
clynderboy
Thanks Jeffrey....in fact, thanks to everyone on this forum who is willing to help find justice for us!

I'm going to contact Michael Lyon in the morning and will report back here when I have more info.

Cheers smile.gif
clynderboy
Any thoughts from anyone about my earlier question of whether or not to ask for the video? unsure.gif

Ta. smile.gif
jeffreyarcher
You don't buy a guard dog ad bark yourself.
clynderboy
Hello All
I'm here to report that I've had a good outcome to all of the above.... the case against me has been dropped, due to...wait for it....lack of evidence!

Now, whether or not this is due to the UNsigned S172, I'll leave you to guess, as I've not been told myself. Anyway, I'd just like to take this opportunity to thank all those who took the time to give me advice through this forum. IT PAID OFF!!

Cheers guys.
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