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Bourne
Hi everyone,

I've just received a summons for driving at 106 over 1.27 miles on a dual carriageway back in August. Didn't make me the happiest man on Valentines day as my Mrs will tell you. I don't doubt that I was speeding but i'm not certain of the speed. The statement from the police officer says that it was a fine dry day with little traffic so i'm hoping to get 6 points and a fine rather than a ban (i already have 3 points for speeding 80 in 70 earlier in the year). I run my own business and a ban would be difficult as you could imagine.

The police officer was alone in an unmarked car and followed me using a VASCAR computer but there is nothing as evidence on video. There is a statement from the police officer confirming that the equipment had been checked and found to be accurate.

Is there anything I can do to check that his equipment was working correctly?
Is it common for a lone police officers statement to be the only evidence in a case like this?
My vehicle specification found on websites shows the top speed as 103mph but i'm being prosecuted for 106.8mph on the flat? I can't check the top speed unless I want to tell the next police officer why i'm driving so fast!!!
How far out does the distance reading need to be to cause some doubt? I'm dubious and possibly going to have survey carried out of actual distance between fixed reference points.

I'm just checking that there aren't any details I could look into before accepting the charge.

Any advice would be welcome. rolleyes.gif
Glacier2
106 on a DC will be an almost certain ban.
Mayhem007
QUOTE (Bourne @ Sun, 15 Feb 2009 - 10:53) *
Hi everyone,

I've just received a summons for driving at 106 over 1.27 miles on a dual carriageway back in August. Didn't make me the happiest man on Valentines day as my Mrs will tell you. I don't doubt that I was speeding but i'm not certain of the speed. The statement from the police officer says that it was a fine dry day with little traffic so i'm hoping to get 6 points and a fine rather than a ban (i already have 3 points for speeding 80 in 70 earlier in the year). I run my own business and a ban would be difficult as you could imagine.

The police officer was alone in an unmarked car and followed me using a VASCAR computer but there is nothing as evidence on video. There is a statement from the police officer confirming that the equipment had been checked and found to be accurate.

Is there anything I can do to check that his equipment was working correctly?
Is it common for a lone police officers statement to be the only evidence in a case like this?

I'm just checking that there aren't any details I could look into before accepting the charge.

Any advice would be welcome. rolleyes.gif


Yes it is common for a police car to have only one officer. From what I gather though, is that the polieman must have is video on record for his entire duty because they are generally manually activated, which would cause problems when pursuing vehicles.

It would assist guys and girls on here if you were to specify how he measured the distance you travelled

Does the police report state that the VASCAR was approved by the home office
ict_guy
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sun, 15 Feb 2009 - 11:20) *
It would assist guys and girls on here if you were to specify how he measured the distance you travelled


The OP has answered this - VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer And Recorder).

It would be unusual not to have recorded the incident, however.
Mayhem007
QUOTE (ict_guy @ Sun, 15 Feb 2009 - 11:32) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sun, 15 Feb 2009 - 11:20) *
It would assist guys and girls on here if you were to specify how he measured the distance you travelled


The OP has answered this - VASCAR (Visual Average Speed Computer And Recorder).

It would be unusual not to have recorded the incident, however.


I was referring to the reference markers...was it square markers in the road...overhead bridges etc
andy_foster
There might be an issue regarding the admissibility of the evidence. 'Glorified stopwatches' (such as VASCAR) became 'prescribed devices' last year - which means that records and measurements from them are not admissible as evidence of speeding unless they are approved by the Home Office. However the List of approved devices on the Home Office website has not been updated since March 2007 - so we don't know if VASCAR has been approved.
Bourne
Hi everyone, thanks for all your input.

The police officer used a VASCAR system which is in his statement. The statement confirms that the incident was not recorded on video and the reference points are 'the end of the laybe on nearside just after **** bridge' and the second reference 'start of kerb on central reservation'. All this over a distance of 1.272 miles which I could try to check?

I haven't read whether the VASCAR is approved or not but the only options on his statement were VASCAR or POLICE PILOT so I would assume they are both approved. How can i find out?
davidson
What sort of unmarked car were the police using Bourne? Good luck Davidson
Bourne
I think it was a Mondeo or a similar sized Turbo. Not sure. huh.gif
Bourne
I have just copied this quote below from another thread made by Rallyman72. Does anybody know whether these guidelines are correct? If so are the reference points in my summons 'the end of the layby on nearside just after ***** bridge' and 'start of kerb on central reservation' questionable?

I can see a couple of problems but i'm not sure how the court would see it? Might just be pissing into the wind.

Firstly the incident is recorded at 20:08 on a day when the sunset at 20:03 (according to quick check on website) therefore I would assume that there would be no shadows to measure on an unlit road at dusk?

Secondly even if the above is not true the reference points are on separate sides of the road, one of which would not have been close to my vehicle (as I know that I travelled in the fast lane on this journey) and nor would I have cast a shadow on both of them (or them on me) unless the road did a full 180 (which it doesn't i'm glad to say).

I was caught using a VASCAR 'follow check' method with no video.

I am considering getting a friend who is a land surveyor to physically measure and record the distances between these two reference points as the distance doesnt seem be 100% when checked in my car. I would like to know how far away from the specified distance of 1.272 miles, the actual distance needs to be before casting doubts on the police officers recordings. I wouldn't want to waste his time in having to survey a mile and a quarter of dual carriageway.

I have just found out that according to the spec my vehicles top speed is 103mph. I am being prosecuted for 106.8 on a level section of road. I don't know what my top speed is but i'm not about to find out as I will be facing another summons. If the vehicle hasn't been modified can I just tell them that it won't go that fast? I can't test it unless I want to head to Silverstone?

Any thoughts?





QUOTE
QUOTE (ACPO)The detection of speeding offences using the equation: Speed = Distance/time is a long established practice. Initially this was carried out by the use of a certified stopwatch and the odometer of the patrol car. Whilst this principle remains, technology has allowed for the introduction of sophisticated equipment, which has proved to be far more efficient and accurate. The operation of the devices simply involves the operation of a distance switch and a time switch, in the appropriate sequence. This calls for a high level of operator accuracy and, in order to achieve it, a good deal of practical experience is required.
Where a vehicle is, in the opinion of a police officer, travelling at an excessive speed the device is used as corroboration.
The checking of a target vehicle's speed can be done by a number of methods.
In order that this can be done, the target vehicle must be checked between two reference points best defined as ‘either a permanent or temporary identifiable point on or near the carriageway’:
(a) Which either casts a shadow so as to strike a moving vehicle, or which is so placed that the shadow of a moving vehicle strikes it or its shadow; or
(b) Where there is physical contact between the road wheels of the moving vehicle and a reference point; e.g. change of surface, drain
; or
© Where the target vehicle and the police vehicle are side by side.
There are five alternatives
• a moving shadow on a stationary object or a mark on the road surface;
• a moving object on a stationary shadow or a mark on the road surface;
• a shadow-to-shadow contact;
• physical contact of vehicle wheels with reference point;
• both vehicles are side by side;
By using reference points, which fit this definition, any uncertainty can be eliminated.
It is important to remember the police vehicle must pass between the same points as the target vehicle. This is essential as the distance information is taken from the police vehicle.
When the police vehicle has travelled between the two points and the distance switch operated, on at the first point and off at the second point, the device then knows the distance between the points. As the target vehicle travels between the same two points, the time switch is operated. The switch being switched on at the first point and off at the second point. The device now knows the time the target vehicle took to travel between the two points.
The device now has both parts of the equation required to calculate the target vehicle's average speed. This is done in a fraction of a second and the result is then visible on a digital display.
If for any reason the operator has any doubt as to the validity of the check, it must be abandoned.
11.3 Types of Check
11.3.1 Follow Check
This type of check is carried out when the police vehicle is following the target vehicle. As the target vehicle passes the first reference point, the time switch is turned on. As the police vehicle passes the same reference point, the distance switch is turned on. As the target vehicle passes the second reference point, the time switch is turned off.
The device now knows the time the target vehicle took to travel between the two reference points.
As the police vehicle passes the second reference point, the distance switch is turned off. The device now knows the distance between the two reference points that the target vehicle has travelled.

11.3.2 Pre-Fed Distance Check
This type of check is carried out when the police vehicle travels between the two reference points. Turning the distance switch on at the first point and off at the second point.
The police vehicle then parks in a position that the two reference points can be clearly seen by the operator.
The device has the distance between the reference points stored. As a target vehicle passes between the points the time switch is turned on and off. The device can then calculate the speed. Providing the distance information is not cleared from the device the police vehicle can remain parked and, by clearing the time information only, another target vehicle can be checked.
11.3.3 Being Followed Check
This check is carried out when the police vehicle is travelling in front of the target vehicle that is approaching from behind at a speed, which is excessive.
The police vehicle will travel between the two reference points, with the operator turning the distance switch on and off. The device now knows the distance travelled.
As the target vehicle, still approaching from the rear, passes the same points the time switch is turned on and off. The device now knows the time taken to travel between the reference points. The device knows the distance and time and can calculate the speed. NB When using this method operators should guard against any suggestion of provoking another driver to commit the offence especially if the police vehicle is unmarked.
11.3.4 Crossing Check
This check is started when the police vehicle is stationary.
As the target vehicle passes the first reference point, the time switch is operated. The police vehicle then moves off behind the target vehicle, operating the distance switch as the police vehicle passes the same reference point.
With the police vehicle now following the target vehicle and both time and distance switched on, the completion of the check is the same as the ‘follow check’.
11.3.5 Dial in Distance Check
This mode enables a known distance previously measured by the device to be fed into the device computer without the need to drive again over the route. Simply record the distance on the same push button switches as used for calibration purposes. This procedure can also be used with the control module removed from the car and plugged into the portable battery pack.
Particular care must be exercised where shadows are used as these will change with the movement of the sun
The minimum distance for any check is generally 1/8 or .125 of a mile. However checks over a shorter distance, down to an absolute minimum of 0.07 of a mile, are permissible under the following circumstances:
(a) This minimum distance is only for Pre-fed or Dial in Distance Checks.
(b) The reference points at both the start and end of the check are physical features on the road surface, which provide a clear and visual contact (e.g. white line/change of surface) not shadows.
© The maximum speed limit at the site does not exceed 40mph.
Trainers are to be satisfied that operators carrying out reduced distance checks are capable of performing the function professionally
11.4 Calibration
In order to maintain accuracy these devices must be calibrated in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions. Full calibration must be carried out:
(a.) on initial installation,
(b.) following removal and reinstatement,
(c.) following the fitment of new tyres, and
(d.) in any case at weekly intervals.
In order to establish the ongoing accuracy of the device a check must be carried out at the commencement of each tour of duty and at the end of that tour of duty if it has been used to detect an offence.
If the device is found to be inaccurate, then not only must the defect be remedied but also any offences detected since the previous accuracy check should be reviewed, as it is not known at what point the equipment became defective.
The Rookie
The only plausable defence I can see there is the distance, if you can show the distance is in significant error you may be able to enter a Newton plea where you admit speeding but contest the details (the alleged speed).

Simon
Mayhem007
Why did he use a nearside layby instead of the bridge. The bridge would have been much easier and you wouldn't necessarily, have to be close.

I'll bet he started your time from the bridge but didn't actually start the distant meter until he got to the layby, because he wasn't quick enough or was focused on something else.

Which is why they reckon there was no video.

Bourne
But just because there is no video, i'm sure the word of the police officer is enough to convict me even if his method and evidence is slightly sketchy? Guilty until proven.
THEGMAN
You and I may be in a similar situation See my posts on 'Unmarked Sussex Motorcycle', you need to "wash" the Witness statemtents and get them on it to pick the bones out of ideally.
The Rookie
IF there is a video, then it would be classed as 'unused evidence', not needed for a conviction, BUT it should be eavilable to request disclosure of for the defence.

If the Video, as evidence, has been destroyed, then it is an abuse of process to continue with the prosecution as Lang would tell you.

Simon
Bourne
The officers statement states that 'this incident was not recorded on video'. I'm not sure if it was or wasn't but I don't think I can request a copy of it. This also means that a video can't later be used as evidence for prosecution doesn't it?
The Rookie
Correct, so if you can debunk the distance measure as you think you can, they will have little to fall back on.

Simon
Bourne
Hi everyone,

I am still not sure which way to go with my case. An early guilty option to save money and take the spanking or an argument about facts and evidence.

My question is... except for the police officers statement which I have received and the NIP which is referenced in his statement which I have not received what else can be used against me as evidence?

The statement says that there is no video.

There are no other witnesses.

If I plead not guilty I imagine the police officer will be asked to attend court as witness and will probably bring his notepad as evidence. What sort of information is normally taken down in his notepad other than my name, address, reg, speed, location of reference points? Is the spot where I stopped accurately noted? The distance behind at which the police officer followed? How many passengers were in my car? At what point of the offence is the time recorded as? (VASCAR reading, time I stopped, time he let me go again?)

Does the police officer write up a report of the offence. If so will it be used as evidence? What info will it record?

Can I get a copy of all the evidence against me prior to the initial court date? Who do I contact regarding getting the calibration certificate for the VASCAR?

I am really completely unaware as to what the CPS will bring against me other than the officers statement and NIP. If anybody can inform me as to what I can expect I would very much appreciate it.

Many thanks

Bourne
The Rookie
All the info relevant will be in his statement, which is the time and distance on the approved device, following him making an opinion of excess speed, that is all he needs, he may reference start and end of session checks.

Simon
Bourne
Scanned stuff:-



My initial hearing is at the Magistrates court in a month or so. If I plead not guilty on this date does the case get heard straight away or do I get another hearing and some time to review the prosecutions evidence?

Can I then review the evidence and change my plea to guilty at the subsequent hearing? Will I be able to question the police officer at this second hearing (ie as the only witness will he be called to court as routine)?

Bourne
ict_guy
You were measured over 1.27miles which equates to 2032m. Let us suppose an error of 100m (which is quite a distance), this would be approx. 5%. Making your speed somewhere between 101mph and 111mph. You see, over that distance, any error would be fairly insignificant.

Your car, according to your quote, would be capable of the lower speed in the above calculation.

A newton hearing may be your best bet here. Where you admit to speeding, but at a lower speed.
Bourne
Just a quick update.

I went to court a month or so ago and represented myself. I pleaded guilty on the day without an early plea and was asked a few questions. I offered no excuse for the speeding offence (as I didn't have one) and said that I regretted what I had done but it was too late to change anything. I was also given the opportunity to talk about how a ban would affect me which as for most people would make life hard through work etc.

I RECIEVED 6 POINTS AND £355 FINE WHICH WAS A RESULT.

This has made life a whole lot easier compared to receiving a ban so I am grateful almost everytime I drive at the moment. I hope this news offers a glimmer of hope to anybody caught in the same position as I was. My advice is to dress smartly and save your money instead of paying for a solicitor if there is no defence as you can probably say everything that needs to be said yourself.

I was set against fighting what I considered an almost certain ban in any way possible and at the end of the day (without any reasonable defence) I had to hold up my hands and take what was coming.... which wasn't so bad after all.

Wishing you good luck.

Bourne
ict_guy
Well done. A result!

You could have thrown away £1000's on a legal bod and ended up with no better a result. Money well saved in your case. Well done.
Gaza
If this was on a DC the the limit for a VW Van (unless it was classified as a car derived van) would have been 60mph, not 70mph. So you were 46mph over the limit!
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