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oliverd22
Hi guys,

Just prior to xmas I was working (I am a van courier) and parked on the pavement whilst loading as it was early in the early hours of the morning and at the time I thought it would be outside of restricted hours.

As I was loading a traffic warden approached my van and started taking pictures. I asked him what was the issue and he explained I was not allowed to park there at any time. On hearing this, I said to him "I'll move then" and got in to drive off. He said to me (direct quote) "Don't worry, I am not going to issue a ticket" but continued taking pictures, which naturally got me worried! So I drove off.

I thought that was the issue over with, but low and behold today my company called me to say they have had to pay £120 because I was given a ticket and did not pay it. This traffic warden has actually issued a ticket after I have driven off, and as I haven't known about it nothing has been done and now the charge has been the full £120.

Now please tell me if I am wrong, but I believed a warden is required by law to serve you with a PCN, either by giving it to you or attaching it to your vehicle. Neither were done in this case.

But I am worried it is now my word against his and I cannot prove he didn't serve me with it. Clearly his answer is just going to be that he stuck it to my van and I have ignored it. So my question is, does Westminster Council need to prove they served me with the ticket i.e. a photo of my van with the ticket on it. And if so, what should I do or ask them for?

If anyone could point me towards some legislation stating this it would be much appreciated. I feel I have been well and truely screwed over, and it's not by the council but by this actual individual traffic warden.

Any help would be gratefully received!

Oli
cabbyman
Unfortunately, they can serve by post these days, reg 10 I believe it is.

Also, double unfortunate that the company have paid it because Westminster can often be defective.

Others will confirm/deny my comments. (Me not being expert....)
wanderingfool
as he was taking pictures of your van i would assume that he has a photo of the PCN attached to your windscreen.

post scans in jpg format of both sides of all docs you have received to date and the experts will look them over.

edit.

it could well be a new tactic for getting payed, as most companys pay parking tickets right away and recover the money from their employee
clark_kent
QUOTE (cabbyman @ Fri, 6 Feb 2009 - 20:37) *
Unfortunately, they can serve by post these days, reg 10 I believe it is.



Although legally entitled many Councils do not authorise (trust) their contractors to allow their CEOs issue reg 10 for drive aways.
oliverd22
Thanks for your replies.

Cabbyman, I would say though, although they can serve by post these days I wasn't served by post. At least not initially. The only point at which I actually got a letter from them was when they said "You have ignored our PCN and now need to pay us double".

Wanderingfool, perhaps I didn't explain it very well, but he won't have a pic of the ticket on the van because he never put one on, he didn't get the chance because as soon as he said I couldn't park there I left.

Basically he got pics of me whilst I was asking him what the problem was, but the ticket was issued after I had gone and was neither given to me nor stuck on my van, nor was it sent in the post at the time.

Oli

spaceman
QUOTE (wanderingfool @ Fri, 6 Feb 2009 - 20:38) *
as he was taking pictures of your van i would assume that he has a photo of the PCN attached to your windscreen.

post scans in jpg format of both sides of all docs you have received to date and the experts will look them over.

edit.

it could well be a new tactic for getting payed, as most companys pay parking tickets right away and recover the money from their employee


As the OP has already said that he drove off before a pcn was issued, it follows that there would be no photo of one on the vehicle.

The penalty charge has been paid so no right of appeal can arise.

One recourse is restitution through the county court. Difficult, given that the owner of the vehicle has paid without challenge and that the vehicle was parked in contravention by the OP's own admission.
oliverd22
So if someone else has paid on my behalf I cannot appeal?

Oli
Anorak
Payment closes the case. However, you are still entitled to obtain copies of all photographs taken and a copy of the log book entry for your vehicle (you may have to do this via a Freedom of Informaton request if they play hardball). Did you receive a Notice to Owner requesting £120.00 or was it a regulation 10 PCN (postal PCN)? If your company received a Notice to Owner then the authority need to be able to prove that the PCN was served on your vehicle. They can only do this by a photograph of the PCN stuck on it or a record in the log book clearly noting that the PCN was fixed to the vehicle.

If there is no photo evidence and no record in the log book this should be reasonable evidence to your company that you are telling the truth.
oliverd22
It was not a regulation 10 PCN, it was a notice to the owner that the original PCN had not been paid and now costs £120.00.

I have told my employers before NOT to pay penalty charges until they have spoken to me about it but I was ignored and I think they have paid it. If something has come through the post then generally they pay it and I only find out each Friday when I pick up my payslip.

There is a chance they may have not yet got round to paying it. If they haven't then do you think I have strong grounds to appeal?

If so should I ask them for photographic evidence that they PCN was served (which they won't have because it wasn't).

If my employers have paid it I should sue them!
Anorak
The fact that it was an NtO favours you as it means the CEO claims to have served the PCN. As you know there will be no photo evidence then it will rest on what the log book entry says. It is very unusual for a CEO to take the trouble to write that the PCN was fixed to the vehicle. Therefore, you have a good chance that there will be no evidence the PCN was served. In fact if they have photos of your vehicle it will make your case stronger as the question will have to asked as to why is there no photo of the PCN on the vehicle?

If the log book clinches it for you, then although the case is closed there is nothing to stop your employer or yourself from seeking a refund through the official complaint procedure with the head of directorate. If you don't get satisfaction at this level they give you the opportunity to take it to a higher level and as far as the Local Govt Ombudsman if you still feel wronged. Make sure you make an official comlaint about the CEO as well.
wanderingfool
QUOTE (oliverd22 @ Fri, 6 Feb 2009 - 20:53) *
Thanks for your replies.


Wanderingfool, perhaps I didn't explain it very well, but he won't have a pic of the ticket on the van because he never put one on, he didn't get the chance because as soon as he said I couldn't park there I left.

Basically he got pics of me whilst I was asking him what the problem was, but the ticket was issued after I had gone and was neither given to me nor stuck on my van, nor was it sent in the post at the time.

Oli


hehe that was my point!! that the warden did not have a picture of the PCN on your van screen because you drove off, as he had pictures of your van then surely he would have one of the PCN fixed to your van, my view is that your evidence of not being served is strong because the warden has pictures but crucially not of the PCN on your van.
Anorak
Oli.....out of interest does your company take the penalty charge from your wages and if so have you signed a legal document agreeing to this? I just wonder because legally it is the "owner" of the vehicle that is liable for the charge and not the driver. If your company are taking money off you without a legal agreement then I suspect they are acting illegally.
oliverd22
Anorak.... Thanks for the thought but I think they're pretty well covered legally.

Like most couriers I am technically self-employed..... I hire the van from them, pay for my own diesel, parking, etc.... and any fines for parking, speeding etc I have to pay. I signed an agreement when I started working for them.

Under normal circumstances if I get a ticket on the window I can deal with it myself. But when something comes through the post naturally it goes to them first.

What has me really p*ssed off today is that I have told them before not to pay the fines and to speak to me first so that I can deal with it. I had a PCN a few weeks back when I had stopped on a red-route (totally my fault, mis-read the loading restrictions) and I had been not only issed a PCN by a warden, but also caught by camera.

They paid the camera fine as soon as they got it, and only by good fortune I hadn't paid the ticket so I was able to get it cancelled. But I told them at the time, any more like that through the post, CALL ME!

And they didn't. F*ckers!

Oli

peodude
You need to go right to the top and get them to stop paying fines, and get in writing. If they are paying PCN's without notice, are they also going to be paying PPC invoices that don't have to be paid.
oliverd22
**** UPDATE ****

Following this, I spoke to my work who assured me that I could appeal as I haven't personally paid the fine, and so I have not admitted fault.

So I appealed and wrote this:

QUOTE
I am challenging this notice on the basis that the traffic order was invalid, specifically because I was not served with this notice.

I would like to start by saying I am absolutely outraged by this situation. I understand that mistakes can sometimes be made by wardens, and this is what the appeal process is for, but this particular situation is very different. This PCN was not issued incorrectly by mistake, this was deliberately issued incorrectly by the warden involved knowing full well what the consequences would be and therefore I expect not only the PCN to be cancelled but I also want a full apology for the behaviour of this individual.



On the morning of the 22/12/2008 I was loading my vehicle at the location on the PCN when I was approached by a warden who began taking photographs of my vehicle, including a picture of the tax disc. I asked what the problem was and a short discussion followed as I believed I was loading legally and the warden disagreed. As the warden insisted that I was in the wrong and I did not wish to get a PCN, I agreed to leave immediately and I drove off.



This was the end of the issue as far as I was concerned as I was not issued with a PCN. In fact to my knowledge the warden had not even started to issue a PCN, he had simply taken some pictures of my vehicle and discussed the alleged offence with me.



Imagine my shock therefore when Milematic Ltd, the company from whom I hire the vehicle, contacted me on Friday (6/2/09) to tell me you had written to them stating that I had not responded to a PCN and therefore Milematic have paid a £120 fine to you, the cost of which is being passed on to me. I had not responded to the PCN for the simple reason that I had never been issued with it, and was not aware that it existed.



For this PCN to be valid you need proof that it was correctly served, such as a photograph of the PCN attached to the vehicle. In this case, as the PCN was never served, you will have no such proof and I expect the PCN to be cancelled on that basis and a full refund issued to Milematic Ltd. As mentioned above, I would also like a formal apology for the behaviour of the individual warden. He deliberately issued this penalty AFTER he had seen me leave the scene, knowing full well that I was not served with it and therefore I could not respond to it. This is outrageous conduct, and not one I would expect Westminster Council to condone.



Yours Sincerely

Oliver Dupuy


Today I received a notice of rejection. Westminster wrote to my work, as owner's of the vehicle and also sent a copy to me. They did not give a reason for the rejection, but simply stated: "I have considered all of the information you have provided but I am unable to cancel the PCN".

Below this though they have written (and I remind you that my work has paid the ticket at £120 already!):

"You must now either pay the PCN or appeal the Council's decision to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice.

I am able to offer you a further 14 days, from the date of this letter, to pay the PCN at the reduced rate.

Please now make a payment of £60.00. This is the discounted rate and the charge will revert to it's full amount of £120.00 if we do not receive the 50% discounted payment within the specified 14 days"


I am going to take this to PATAS and will include this notice about payment as evidence of Westminster's complete and total incompetence in dealing with this matter. I also want to claim for the day or half day's work I will lose by having to attend the hearing.

Any advice on how to prepare my case would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Oli


southpaw82
Any claim for loss of earnings will likely be capped at £50.
oliverd22
Thanks for the info.... does anyone have any suggestions for how I should present the case and any other points I could raise.... like perhaps previous cases or specific legislation relating to what Westminster need to present to me.

I was thinking I should ask Westminster to send me a copy of the PCN too..... given their incompetence so far I wouldn't be surprised if they fail to do that, and I presume that can be used against them too??

Thanks,
Oli
southpaw82
Westminster will have to present a copy of the PCN to the adjudicator. If they don't then they lose by default.
dnalevy
I recently appealed a PCN for someone who had already paid it and Barnet paid the money back.....
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