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joops
just recieved nip, works out that at the time of offence (40 in 30 zone)that my car was up for sale and 2 people came within that timeframe and test drove the car, with my partner ( i was at work 90 miles away) my partner says she wasnt speeding and as i am the registard keeper how do i plead? i can prove it was not me but i dont know the names etc of the 2 people who came to test drive my car, i can prove it was up for sale on that day, it may well have been my girlfriend driving, but i cant say for sure< any advice??? thanks for reading

southpaw82
Firstly, complete the NIP Wizard.
jobo
as rk you have to show reasonable diligence in finding who was driving
however the q is could your p be considered as the keeper of the car at the time or not


is there any proof about the potential divers or indeed the sale

name tel numbers, address, advert for the car

i
joops
hi, yes can prove it wasnt me, named driver, can prove advert for the car, just cant prove other two peoples second names , have mobile number for 1 but not the other,
jobo
before we get into this if you can id a driver

are you convinced they were insured as this q may be asked
joops
yes car is £17000 so my girlfriend checked the insurance thanks
southpaw82
NIP Wizard please.
Northern
How did your girlfriend check insurance?
Would she not need to know thier names, in order to know if they where eligable to drive your car?!?!
joops
yes of course she would have to know they were insured by checking there insurance docs, but remembering the names is diff story, if i go to test a car i take my insurance certificate ( it says can drive any car not belonging to him/her) i wouldnt expect the seller to remember the names 10 days later
glasgow_bhoy
Have you called the driver who you have details for and asked if they could remember what time they test drove the car at? If not then try calling this person, but make NO mention of the speeding matter; just ask make up some crappy excuse for needing to know
Pete D
NIP WIZARD. Pete D
joops
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - January 2009
Date of the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - townsend avenue northbound liverpool L11
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - i am the registered keeper of the vehicle, but my partner is also insured to drive, she drives the car the most, on the day of the alleged offence i was working 60 miles away so i know it wasnt me, but as the car was up for sale had been for 10 days ebay, a few people had come to test drive the car and on the day of the alleged 2 people came to test drive within the timframe of the alleged, one man one lady, my parner checked they had insurance to drive the car as it is an expensive car, basicly can i ask for photo proof just so i can see if it is a female driving and then i can say if it was my girlfriend or the lady who was testdriving, my girlfriend cant give exact timings but she thinks the man took a different route on the test drive so he is unlikley to have commited the offence

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - No
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 14:30:46 +0000

can anyone tell me when we will find out what the fine /points are for this offence please? bothe clean licence 18 years, gutted!
Hotel Oscar 87
Forming part of the NIP you have received is a requirement, under the terms of Sec. 172 Road Traffic Act, 1988, that you identify the driver at the time of the alleged offence. In order to comply with that requirement (and to avail yourself of a defence under that same section) you must exhaust reasonable diligence in your enquiries to identify the person.

You should write promptly to the originator of the NIP (presumably the safety camera partnership or its latest iteration) along the following lines:

Dear Sir

Re: Notice of Intended Prosecution No. XZXZXZXZ, dated XZX January, 2009

I refer to the above notice and request that you forward to me as soon as possible a copy(ies) of any stills you may have of the incident resulting in the issue of the notice, in order to assist me in identifying the driver at the time of the incident.

Yours Faithfully

Mr joops.

By all means feel free to change the wording to your personal style but you should specifically avoid using the words "evidence" or "proof" as you have no automatic right to see this until such time as you have entered a "not guilty" plea in response to a summons - and we have not yet reached that stage by a long stretch. That having been said most police forces will yield to a reasonable request (along the above lines) to assist and they perceive meaningful communication is taking place. I would also suggest that you offer no further explanation beyond the request for the photos as you may provide something of a hostage to fortune if identification becomes a real issue at a later stage.

Most importantly, do not forget that you have 28 days in which to respond to the requirement and this request will NOT stop the clock.
joops
thanks for your help, have drafted letter, post today, thanks, any further advice would be gratefull
slowerdriver
QUOTE (joops @ Sat, 31 Jan 2009 - 15:36) *
thanks for your help, have drafted letter, post today, thanks, any further advice would be gratefull

If there is no response by the earlier of 10 days before the 28 days expires and February 7, write again, enclosing a copy of the original letter. Use recorded delivery and write "SENT BY RECORDED DELIVERY" on the covering letter.
Keep us informed.
bama
when it HAS to be there and be SHOWN to be there use special delivery. recorded delivery often isn't (recorded)
slowerdriver
QUOTE (bama @ Sat, 31 Jan 2009 - 17:41) *
when it HAS to be there and be SHOWN to be there use special delivery. recorded delivery often isn't (recorded)

While theoretically the difference relates to speed and compensation, in practice I agree that RecDel works ~90% of the time and SpecDel 99+%.

For my (won) s172 case, I wrote thrice:
First, with CoP, stating that was used on the letter
Second, by RecDel, stating that was used on the letter, and enclosing #1 and a copy of #1's CoP
This finally elicited the photos, with just a few days to go - so:
Third, by SpecDel, stating that was used on the letter, and enclosing #1, a copy of #1's CoP, #2 and a copy of #2's RecDel slip.
joops
recieved letter today (10th) stating acknowledge receipt of recent letter ( asking for photographic proof to identify driver) and that they are not legaly obliged to provide photographic evidence,
any advice what to do next?? cheers
The Rookie
So where in HO87's letter was the word PROOF used?

They are entirely right, they do not have to supply any evidence, you needed to keep the letter simple (KISS) and just ask for photo's to help ID the driver, time to try again, but you may have already (very accurately) shot yourself in the foot. In the meantime keep all correspondance and start your reasonable dillignece checks and also make sure you respond with whatever info you can within the 28 day window allowed.

Simon
joops
thanks simon, i didnt use the word proof in my first letter to them, i used the template provided on here, i was just using that term on here as a laymans term basicly, should i send the exact letter again that i have already sent? cheers
jobo
start using it as part of your RD defence write again saying you know your not entitled but would be ever so gratefully if they could, to help you id the driver

try not to be sarky

though not a defence it all helps to show you tried every avenue
joops
just recieved another latter from police.........i refer to your recent request for photographic evidence.
i can confirm that a camera enforcement officer has reviewed the evidence and on this occasion the driver of the vehicle cannot be identified
..................
........................
....................
..................as the notice has been forwarded to this department uncompleted a further copy of the notice of intended prosecution is enclosed for your attention and necessary action

im not sure what they mean by "the notice has been forwarded to this department uncompleted" as i have still got the origional nip, i havent sent it yet, all i have sent is the standard letter asking for a copy of the photographic evidence,
any advice? cheers
joops
any advice?? please? cheers
andy_foster
Their letter sounds like a standard response to a request for photos (with uncompleted s. 172 response form).
Regardless of whether or not the photos show the driver - or anything that might indicate who was driving - it might show other things outside the car that might jog the memory of one of the possible drivers (in this case your girlfriend).

If you are unable to name the driver, in addition to exhausting reasonable diligence in attempting to identify the driver (as the person keeping the vehicle), you are required to provide any information that is in your power to give and that might lead to the identification of the driver. - basically, everything that you have told us, with any relevant details added.
Have you done this yet?
[N.B. As you consider yourself to be the person keeping the vehicle, I would consider that the matter of who uses the vehicle most (in general) is of no relevance to identifying the driver - only that she was dealing with it in your absence on that occasion. As you were not there, common sense suggests that exhausting reasonable diligence would be easier for you than it would be for her. If she subsequently received a NIP/s. 172 and was deemed to be any other person (than the person keeping the vehicle), her obligation would merely to be to tell them what she knows.]


Note to all - where a reasonable diligence defence is a real likelihood, it should be noted that any and all correspondence with the scammers is potentially evidence to be placed before the court, and credibility is everything (except diligence). 'Setting out your stall' at the earliest opportunity is generally a good thing, as long as it does not suggest that you have 'decided' that you will subsequently be unable to identify the driver (unless the circumstances are such that that is an inevitability).
Accordingly, in cases such as this, where the recipient of the notice is definitely not the driver, it would seem prudent to provide at least a brief outline of the circumstances when initially requesting the photos. Failure to do so at an early stage, should be far from fatal to any subsequent defence, but unless there's a reason to be coy, I see no benefit in being so.
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